LF - 2005-02-16 21:32:27
Your pipes are going to burst if you don't get some heat in your home.* * * * * * * * * * * *
I know. I was just down in the crawl space, trying to claw off the access panel. It's stuck. I'm on the verge of unscrewing the whole thing to get in there. I'm covered with cobwebs. Going down again in a minute with tools and desperation.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-16 22:00:28
Incidentally, LF, I meant "I know" as "you're darn right" and not as "duh." Hope that didn't come off wrong. At any rate, off to the vise grip and another tussle with that access panel.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-16 22:04:45
It's down to 35 degrees. Fitting that someone who extolls the 19th century gets to live it. At any rate.* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-02-16 22:45:45
Man, it sounds like you've got crappy situation. A busted furnace is bad enough, but when it's in the crawl, it's five times harder to deal with. Good Luck.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-16 22:53:38
Thanks LF. I got the access panel off. Taking lots of breaks as you can tell. * * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 08:07:42
Sounds like a flame sensor is bad. Takes two minutes to replace. What is the model of furnace?* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 08:32:47
If it is a carrier furnace, or generic brand with carrier features, there is only a few things that can be wrong. There is a test you can do as well to determine which part is bad. Inducer fan-ignitor-flame sensor-door switch. The fact that it blows tells me the tranformer and thermostat are both fine, door switch is shut (wouldn't blow) If I knew the brand I could narrow it down.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-17 08:53:26
It's not something as simple as the pilot light, is it, Laura? That happened to a friend of mine last week. You've probably already checked it, but since that's the simplest fix, I'll cross my fingers.* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 08:58:05
If its a newr furnace there will be no pilot light, there will be an ignitor some call them glo-bars. If a bug, like a roach crawls over it, it can fry the ignitor. Not that she would have roaches.* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 09:00:00
Ignitors are ten or twelve bucks.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:06:59
I'm taken aback by the kindness of blogreaders pitching in with ideas and advice. That makes my day right there. Thank you for such nice comments.
Anna, it has a supposedly automatically-igniting electric pilot and the furnace instructions say don't fiddle with it. But you are right, sometimes the problem is just a small, possibly overlooked thing.
YD, clearly you know what you're talking about. I'll check the brand & model # when I get home. I did get the access panel off, turn off the electric, turn off the gas, wait 5 min (as instructed in users manual), turn on gas, turn on electric. Couple times. No dice. I thought it'd be prudent to stop there instead of going further and blowing up the house. After running the gas oven for a bit just to take the edge off, I noticed the furnace was still responding to the thermostat setting (though still only blowing). At any rate. Dopey thing. Left the water very slightly trickling this a.m. before leaving.* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 09:07:55
If she has an older furnace with a standing pilot light and it is working, then I would say thermocouple is bad. 5 bucks. However, since she is not responding, perhaps she is frozen and we all have to find another blog.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:14:16
Ack! I'm not frozen! And it's a new furnace-5 years old.* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-17 09:16:33
Was the main blower working (air thru ducts and registers?) Is there also an inducer fan (a small motor/fan) on the furnace that you only hear by the furnace before it lights, that blows the chimny fumes clear before igniting? For instance, when you normall use the furnace do you hear a little fan go before the flame ignites, then the big blower comes on.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:18:35
I will pause here for a moment to note that thanks to the kindness of readers, this blog is turning into Car Talk--except instead of fixing cars over the radio, it's fixing a furnace over a blog. Kind of funny, actually--I have to laugh.
YD has already given me several useful and helpful tips to narrow things down. That is a huge help. Also, the low prices of the items he mentions are reassuring.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:20:30
YD, yes, you are exactly right. When the furnace comes on, there is a 3-second hum/fan sound that to me signals that the furnace is coming on. It hums for a bit, then whoosh! the big blower comes on. What you described is exactly how it works. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 09:20:32
And, did you watch the furnace operate? Did you take off the upper panel to look at it as it tried to run? If you see flame poof on for a moment, then go out, but the blower stays on, it is a flame sensor. You will need a 1/4 nutdriver to replace. They either look like a mini (3 1/2 inch) hockey stick. Or they are striaght, like a big framing nail, and are connected by a wire with a plastic connector. Its held on by a 1/4 inch nut. Take it off plug aq new one in, bolt it back on if thats the case.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:29:19
That is more extremely useful information--thank you, YD. I did not take off the upper panel, but I noticed it's held on by only 2 strategic screws.
It sounds to me like you've narrowed it down to the flame sensor. And the fix you describe is doable. I'm guessing by "nutdriver" you are referring to what I call a socket wrench, which I have (and complete socket set, one of my most oft-used tools). I think your fix is worth a try. I'll try to think of a place where I can scare up a flame sensor; Home Depot, maybe.
YD might just have saved Ypsidixit big bucks by taking the time, when he has other things to do, to clearly and precisely describe the probable problem and the fix with expertise. I am grateful to YD for his kindness. And as the daughter of a printing press mechanic I have to say I admire people with the practical expertise of knowing how to fix things. It's a skill I respect.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 09:39:51
It is probably easier for you to fix as the space in a furnace compartment is tight. Women usually have smaller hands. So unless you have huge hands you should be able to do it. If you call someone on the weekend, you'll pay at least 100 more for honor of calling after working hours, maybe 150 more. Just let me know what kind it is. I would buy a flame sensor, maybe 2, and an ignitor anyway, when you know the model. Having a ten dollar ignitor in your kitchen drawer can come in handy when its christmas and 3 degrees out and then you have to pay holiday time 200 or so just to come out.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 09:48:35
Look at the inner workings tonight. Identify these parts (Ignitor, flame sensor, inducer fan, gas valve, door switch) The gas valve will have gas piping connected to it, will be a small grey box, the ignitor will be black,or charred a bit gray, horseshoe shapped, it must be continuous light a lightbiulb filiment, if it is broken it will not glow red like it is supposed to, if it glows red, flame comes on and then goes out right away, the flame sensor is not sensing the flame and is a safety that turns off the gas valve, they go bag very often. The flame sensor will be positioned at an angle into the flame/burner tube path. It will be silvery metal, like a nail, with a wire. There is most likely instructions on the back of the top panel on how to run a test. Ususally it involves taking a paper clig or screwdriver and connect to metal pins in the circuit baord that will say test. Once you touch them together the furnace will run a test which will go thru each component one at a time, and you watch each one. If you know what each component should do you can identify the bad one.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 09:51:10
Flame sensors and ignitors cannot be purchased at Home Depot. Go to Koch & White, Fuller Heating, or Young Supply. Or I may be able to get you a flame sensor if I know wether it is a hockey stick shaped one or a straight one. Plus there is a lot online now anot furnace. When you know the mosel, look it up, they will have troubleshooting secton.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 09:59:40
That is written so clearly and descriptively that I could actually picture the parts you were describing and match them to the parts I examined last night. I did find the gas valve, and it was as you say a small grey box under the bottom access panel.
Thanks to this very valuable help I have an idea of how to proceed. I'll print out this thread as my guide and carefully follow YD's instructions. I'll take off the top panel & look for the test label & see if I can run a test, after identifying the parts you mentioned. Then once I have the model # or the (presumably) bad flame sensor removed, I'll know which one to buy to replace it. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 10:02:00
A nutdriver is not a socket wrench. You may be able to use a socket but maybe not due to the space constrictions. A nutdriver is like a screwdriver but the tip is a 1/4 inch hexogon shaped for the 1/4 inch nut that holds most furnace parts in place. An extra long one is prefered. Like 10 inches. If you have a regular sized one your hands might get in the way. A magnetized one is best to hold the nut on the driver and position it in place inside the furnace. Trying to put a nut in place deep inside the furnace and dropping it a million times will lead to excess drinking. And once you identify the part needing to be replaced, turn the power off at the switch before touching anything inside.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 10:05:16
More good advice from YD about where to get a flame sensor--and I didn't know that furnaces had troubleshooting webpages. That in itself is another big help. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-17 10:08:35
Whoa. Clearly YD is in his element here. He's also a stand-up guy for assisting our freezing amiga...* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 10:09:20
Of course there are other things that can go wrong. If you have a bad gas valve you should not attempt to replace it. They are tricky. Most of the time (85%) it is something rather simple. Sometimes kids turn the switches off in basements playing, sometimes the blower door shakes loose and the safty switch shuts it off. Or there is crud on the thermostat. But yours sounds like it is trying to start, so thermostat probably good.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 10:11:57
We here have to keep over 1000 people warm. My boss just eyeballed me angrily though. I better really do something. I know, I'll go check the boilers.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 10:12:22
Oh, I see--OK, turns out I have a nutdriver, but not a 10-inch one. I'll have to see if the one I have is long enough. But I might have to pick up a magnetized one, for the reason you mention. I had to laugh at the Dantean image of dropping a tiny nut over and over deep in the furnace, in the Antarctic crawl space. Magnetized is the way to go.
YD, I am in debt to you for this highly valuable help. You paint yourself as not only very knowledgeable but gracious and kind to so freely share the info that less fortunate people than I must pay quite a lot for, and should, since it's vital info. Thank you, YD.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 10:16:17
Dan: YD is in his element all right. Wow. I'm amazed. How many people do you know who are knowledgeable enough to actually describe, in great detail, exactly how to fix a furnace? It's astounding.
And, I agree, YD shows his good character by taking all sorts of time that he can doubtless ill afford to go to great lengths to help. Hope the good karma works its way back around to him somehow.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 10:21:52
Dan: I had to laugh at "freezing amiga." That has a funny ring to it. Hopefully I'll be a defrosted amiga before long.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 10:26:46
I forgot to mention something important. Hopefully you do not have a high-efficiency furnace. They have plastic (PVC) discharge pipe instead of the chimney. If you have one of those everything I have mentioned is null and void and you are a bit screwed. They may save 100 bucks a year in gas. But there are a zillion more parts and they are very expensive, only can be purchased if you are a lisenced mechanic, and the parts are outrageously priced. I hate them. You always end up paying five times as much in repairs than you save in gas cost. And you have to practically be a jet mechanic to work on them. Tons of circuitry.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 10:30:32
Hmm. Not sure. It's pretty new, but if I remember right the chimney is just aluminum pipe that goes up through a closet & into the roof. There is PVC piping down there, but I think it's all the sewer system. I'll be sure to check, though. More helpful advice; thank you so much, YD. You really came through with flying colors and helped me enormously. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 11:05:05
http://www.customerservice.carrier.com/details/0,1240,CLI1_DIV18_ETI503,00.html* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 11:06:35
http://www.trane.com/Residential/TraneOwners/OwnersManuals.aspx* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 11:11:16
More useful help, though I'll have to wait till I get home to check them out. I just realized it's a Trane--that's the logo on the access panel. Wow. I bet that page has my exact furnace.
YD, I hope your kindness works itself full circle and comes back to you somehow. You helped enormously. If nothing else at least everyone else now knows what kind of person you are. Thank you, YD.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 11:24:18
No problem.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 11:55:02
Flame sensors can be cleaned with light sandpaper to get it to run, but plan on replaing it or having a spare. We have recently been experiencing the same problem - burners ignite, run for a few seconds, then shut off, repeats cycle 2-3 times, then blower blows with no flame and no heat. The suggestion to clean the burner sensor worked like a charm for me. It's easy to do, but you should completely shut off gas and electricity to the unit before doing this. Simply remove the power connector from the sensor (pull easily), and remove the sensor from the unit with a screwdriver. On the XE80, the heating sensor is located on the left end burner and looks like a white diode with a small metal rod about 2-4 inches long, which extends into the flame path of the left burner to indicate to the system that there is flame-on. The problem is that metal flame sensor on this is dirty and is not relaying a flame-on signal to the system, and therefore the gas shuts off, and thus no heat. Once removed, I gently wiped the metal sensor wire with light sandpaper to clean 9 years worth of grit off the thing - it didn't even really look dirty until I saw the residue on the sand paper after cleaning. Be careful not to break or dislodge the sensor when cleaning. Then simply replace and turn on gas and power, and behold - you have heat!!! Worked like a charm and the best part, it was free!!!!!!!! I had the same condition and same fix on my Trane XL1400. There was an additional bit of information that was helpful. This furnace has an igniter board red led (light emiting diode)that blinks with error codes. The codes are defined on a tag attached to the ignition HV wire. In my case it blinked 5 times repeatedly and that is listed as flame detected without the gas valve opening. I cleaned the sensor and the back of the circuit board and it works fine. I suspect dirt or spider webs were causing erroneous signals. http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=trane+flame+sensor&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/176034.html&w=trane+flame+sensor&d=C63E2B99A2&icp=1&.intl=us* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 12:27:11
That is good advice as well, and would be a good first step to try; I've got various grades of s-paper in the garage. It was a bit dusty inside the unit, so maybe it's just a question of dirt on the sensor. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 15:32:15
Don't forget a good flashlight or droplight.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 16:08:26
If you have compressed can of air it would help to clean the circuit board. Or gently wipe it with cloth.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 16:11:25
You are right--a droplight is the thing. I have one that I can run from a nearby bathroom outlet. And I have some soft cotton cloths for the circuit board. I expect to be busy tonight, but thanks to your kind help I have direction & an idea of what to look for. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 16:16:46
Remember the test mode. The blinking red light should diagnose what component is bad. Its like morse code. Clean the flame sensor. And if the glow bar does not turn orange, that could be it. Also check for obstructions like dead birds or squirrell nests in the flue. There is usually a cleanout cap on the aluminum tube flue you desribed. Bang on it. Should sound hollow. If there is crap in it. The pressure switch will not work (another safety device.) Good luck. Post if you get it going or not.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 16:20:38
And if you buy a new glow bar. Don't touch the black part with your hands. Oils will shorten its life span. Or just call Fuller Heating. They have reasonable prices. But I would try the simple stuff yourself first. And it won't hurt to become more familiar with it. Just turn power switch off before sticking your hands in there!* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 16:33:19
The codes will be printed on one of the panels. Normally when you run a test these things happen: 1 Inducer fan motor (small) begins to run, will stay running throughout test,2. Hot surface ignitor will get oragnge for 15 seconds or so then go out, 3. Main blower will then come on 10 seconds, 4. Inducer fan stops. So if all that stuff happens in that order, probably flame sensor. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 16:34:40
I've seen the blinking red light, but never realized it was a code before today. I'm going to print out this whole thread as my guide. Then get all my tools together at home (sandpaper, &c.), and take a deep breath and go at it, carefully. I will post whether I get it going or not--it is very kind of you to check up on that. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 16:37:00
Thank you YD for the glow bar info & for the test info. You're right, it's good to get familiar with at least the simple things. But Fuller is a good recommendation, since you clearly know what you're talking about. I'll keep that in mind.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-17 16:49:33
Fuller, Bronson Heating & Cooling or Robertson-Morrison. I would never use Indoor Comfort (my opinion)* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 18:46:01
That's good advice from someone who knows. Thank you YD. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 20:31:46
Think I've found the flame sensor:
* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 21:12:42
Sure enough, that was the flame sensor. It was shaped like a hockey stick, just as YD said. I sanded it off well with 150 and then 60 grade sandpaper (it wasn't very dirty) and put it back in, using a bit of Vaseline to hold the nut in the nutdriver. Tried to restart. No dice. Looks like it's time to call in the pros to fix this Payne (not Trane) furnace, product # PG8DAA036095ABJA, model # PGHDAA036095, serial # 3199A17632. Shoot. Gave it my best shot. Noticed the blinker was blinking 3 short and then 3 long flashes, but couldn't find the Morse code decoder on inside upper panel.
At any rate, Ypsidixit is very grateful to YD for his extraordinary help and kindness. Without his knowledge, she wouldn't have known a flame sensor from a hole in the ground.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-17 22:01:45
Subsequent tests show that, as before, the furnace blows, but does not ignite. Another night of squirreling as deep as possible under the covers. Ypsidixit will have to call in the experts to figure this out.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-18 08:04:38
http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/80011.html* * * * * * * * * * * * Better - 2005-02-18 08:28:25
http://www.hvacmechanic.com/forums/resservice/messages/10644.htm#* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 09:00:15
thank you YD. But I'd better stop here. I don't know if I need a new flame sensor (if so, I could easily replace that) or what-all is wrong with the thing.
If it weren't a dangerous appliance I might go a bit further, but accidents happen when the clueless (me) start fiddling around with things they don't understand. I'll have to try to get someone in on Saturday if I can. I am very grateful to you, YD, for your kind help. This is familiar ground to you, but a bit baffling to me I'm afraid. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 09:05:29
I do think it is kind of you to dig up those message boards, by the way. Thanks for that. I am a bit disheartened; I was so excited to try and fix it myself, but I suppose it's not to be. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:00:30
YD, after all the lengths you went to, I feel like an idiot for not being able to fix it. Maybe I should try replacing the flame sensor instead of just sanding it. I'm just a bit tired of being so cold at home for days now, and repairs drag on so long when one has to work all day. I looked up Robertson-Morrison. They sound good. I'll think about it till lunchtime, but like a loser I will probably just call someone. I have to say I wish you were one of the choices in the yellow pages' "furnace repair" section; I doubt I could do better than that, clearly. At any rate.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-18 10:12:52
Well, try to call during normal working hours. Otherwise you'll pay quite a bit more. Give the neighbor a key or something.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:17:22
Rats. Nice chilly weekend coming up I see--the first one I've had off all month. Oh well. it's my own fault. There are worse fates. Think I'll temporarily move into the Ugly Mug this weekend.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:22:40
Rats. Nice chilly weekend coming up I see--the first one I've had off all month. Oh well. It's my own fault. There are worse fates. Bla bla. At any rate, yd, you must feel like a university professor who's tried for days to explain 2 + 2 to a befuddled child who just doesn't get it, and you have done so very patiently and clearly. I'm grateful to you. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-18 10:41:40
Well, it could be the circuit board or soemthing else tricky.. Flame sensors only work when cleaned about 25% of the time so it could be that still or the ignitor (Did that look unbroken?) I would still purchase a flame sensor and ignitor and change those next time it goes out first. At least have them on hand. You may have to order Pyne stuff. I had not heard of a Payne* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:47:08
Keeping those items is good advice. I'll get them and put them in my tool drawer in the kitchen. Paye seems to be, from what I read online last night, very similar to Carrier. And though I looked for a labeled map of furnace parts online, I did not find one and so am not sure which one is the ignitor. This is dumb. I need to get one of those fix-it-yourself books pronto. I'm such a dolt.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:51:17
by "this is dumb," I meant this=being stuck without heat because of my own lack of preparation, not this=chatting on the blog, which I am enjoying very much. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-18 10:56:58
At any rate, I wanted to go do some research at Halle this weekend anyways, so this will help get me up & out of the house. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-18 13:49:05
Behold:
Here is the Warranty Wizard; his creatures of thin paper dance beyond reach, defy description and die quickly.
Here is the Dust Ghost; smudgy wraith of grit, fibers and clogging sands.
Here is Jack Rust; his moist, corrosive breath fogs the machined tines, cogs and levers.
Here is the Angel of Obsolescence; she points and a circuit fails, a crack appears, a seal rots, a handle snaps off.
These are the Four Riders of Home Maintenance. Fear them, as they are a portend of the End Times of savings. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Laura - 2005-02-18 13:52:31Oh, how marvelous! This totally deserves its own post, lest no one read it way down here in the crawl space.* * * * * * * * * * * * Satellite TV - 2005-08-19 07:23:43
Check it out! DIRECTV Direct TV Satellite TV Direct Satellite TV http://www.cmeyou.com DIRECWAY Satellite Dish Satellite Internet Dish Network* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: