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Comments:
brett - 2005-02-08 20:40:38 good suggestion--maybe Mark should mullet over.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-08 21:38:28 Heh! (still trying hard not be nauseated after reaing the link)* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-02-08 21:51:00I wonder if the fishes in the link story were smelt...(groan)* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-08 22:23:12 ick, I hope not...that'd be a crappy idea.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-08 22:56:26 seriously, folks. why is there a seafood company in ann arbor? or is this a restaurant of some sort?* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-08 23:17:49Yes, try the chowder!* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 01:28:54 or the escargot, served in a little metal escargot-tray with individual wells for the garlic-and-butter-drenched escargot, yummie yum yum (I've been there a grand total of 1 times).* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 01:33:53 ...that night I made an entire meal of the escargot, served with mini-slices of French bread, and, strangely enough, the chowder that Dan mentions which was outstanding and almost as good as the clam chowder at the Sidetrack (which [sob] has discontinued its crabcakes).* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-09 09:51:11 You can buy a can of snails just like they do for 5 bucks. Open it with a can opener, just like they do. And dump em on a plate just like they do. But you have to pay 25 bucks for them to open the can. Another overpriced ride of the adult theme park called Main St.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 09:59:53 Well, that's true enough, to be sure. It was exciting to me 'cause I'd never tried them before, and they were very tasty. Plus I was being treated. Anyways, enough about me. Those poor PETA folks will get chilled today in the snow. I agree with PETA's mission and ideals, mostly, but I in no way support any action of theirs that destroys property, as they've done. Handing someone a flier that lays out the cruelty of fur farming is OK. Throwing red paint on someone's fur coat is totally out of line, and only undermines their cause by making them appear to be semi-insane fanatics. If they don't respect others, they won't be respected either.* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre Arrow - 2005-02-09 10:06:10 What about the poor carp under the ice? What about the poor snowflakes they are squashing underfoot?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 10:07:46 Oh, carp are indestructible I imagine. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-09 10:51:17 Snowflakes are not alive. And the carp are just sleeping. :)* * * * * * * * * * * * Carp wacker - 2005-02-09 11:55:16 Just drove by Real seafood. Yes, there was a person dressed like a fish with some other woman (who looked ten) with a sign. Hope it made them feel better. I will dedicate my first slain carp this spring for them.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 11:57:44 as a general rule, i don't think you will see much property destruction by peta these days; that was actually always something generally reserved for ALF (the animal liberation front, not the t.v. show). I was a member of peta circa 1987, and organized a local protest to coincide with their national campaign against Benneton's animal testing for their perfumes (which was ultimately successful, btw). Since that point, however, I haven't been involved -largely becuase peta turned a little too 'commercial' in my opinion, investing all their member dues into madison avenue-style ad campaigns that i personally don't think are the best approach in many cases. Peta is going to get laughed at no matter what they do, i think, just because of the mentality of most americans, so i guess i always felt more subtle (and cost-effective) tactics were needed. I also sometimes feel like the best technique is just for people like myself who agree with most (but not all) of their points to just continue calmly explaining themselves, weakening the prevailing philosophy one conversation at a time.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 11:59:53Thanks for the confirmation, carp wacker. Kind of a pointless exercise, since they didn't so a thing about PR beforehand--I found out by accident. The fact that they didn't bother advertising makes me wonder how much of the protest is just narcissistic ego-stroking. * * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 12:15:07 standing in the snow wearing a fish costume and getting heckled by passing cars sure sounds like a great ego-builder. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-09 12:27:17 Always works for me... :)* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-09 12:28:15 PETA is behind plenty of property damage; they still have active "lab animal liberation" campaigns. Universities just tend to keep these incidents quiet so as not to further publicize the location of animal labs and encourage more organizations to launch attacks. I've had a number of friends who've had years of research destroyed by PETA. So much for a cure for Alzheimer's.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 12:29:44 Dan: I had to laugh. :) Fish stocks around the world are in serious trouble. Entire reef structures are in danger due to an increasingly alkaline sea. Standing outside a restaurant seems less productive than organzizing a platform and contacting legislators, or individually contacting restauranteurs and asking them if they'd like to receive information on where and how to get "greener" supplies of fish. Therefore, I conclude that the fish-costume bit is just a bit of PC martyrdom.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 12:36:08 Anna: The evangelical streak in organizations like PETA can be dangerous indeed. There was a similar animal-rights group hosting a speaker series on campus here at U-M, and one of the speakers argued that is was morally defensible to murder people while conducting lab rescue attempts. Lab rescues are another example of misguided action that only makes the group look bad.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 12:50:10 anna, I must disagree. maybe there was a lab broken into by people who were also members of peta, and maybe peta occasionally defends such actions in a vague manner, but for their own legal self-preservation the organization will never officially be connected to anything like that. This was the case in 1987, and considering the amount of money they are dealing with now I would say it's even more the case in 2005. It might seem like a fine point to outsiders, but it should be fairly obvious if you think of it from a legal standpoint. If Peta had been proven to mastermind a single event like that, they would have long since been dissolved through the court sytem, and they're very aware of the fine line they have to walk. As for ALF, ELF, etc, they are a disorganized (and of course illegal) group, similar to the 'Black Block' of WTO protest fame. In their name things are done by totally different sub-groups with no real contact with one another, which often has the result of very stupid, myopic individuals doing something like releasing tame rabbits into an urban environment, which is incredibly stupid, but which then (as in your case) is immediately taken up and regarded as a reflection on anyone interested in animal rights. Laura points out some individual, of an unknown organization, who made an isolated comment about killing people. It would be wise to look at him as Osama Bin Laden, and look at most everyone else in the movement as the 'muslim world'. Don't bomb the hell out of us because he's crazy.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 13:03:26As i said earlier, by the way, I am not connected to peta or any other organized animal rights group, and i'm not interested in defending anyone's chosen technique. If someone has a question about the ethics involved, I'll gladly respond, but otherwise I suggest you look around the peta site laura linked to if you have a spedific 'beef' with their tactics.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 13:07:16 The speaker was from the Michigan Animal Rights Society (MARS). And it was not an isolated comment I'm afraid. He's been preaching that gospel for most of his career. And he's an official PETA lecturer, not some out-there Osama. Here's the event, from March 2004: %st�Health, Environmental, and Ethical Issues Associated with Vegetarianism�: Michigan Animal Rights Society. Talk by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals lecturer Gary Yourofsky, who is on the record as condoning both arson and murder in the name of animal rights and who compares himself to Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and Jesus Christ. 8-10 p.m., Michigan League room TBA. Free. 222-0981. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 13:10:08 I will say that PETA's recent IAMS dogfood campaign (it is somewhere on their site) that documented dog abuse at the IAMS dogfood research lab was extremely effective and persuasive and horribly sad. It shocked me to see how those dogs lived. I have not purchased the tiniest unit of IAMS since then, and won't. It made a difference to me. If they continue to do work in this vein, I think it would be very persuasive.* * * * * * * * * * * * Carpe Diem - 2005-02-09 13:18:14 Fish eat fish. Maybe there should be a millage vote so we can build a fish prison/aquarium to house the killer fish. And we can hire fish policeman and equip them with scuba gear to monitor the activities of all fish at all times. Of course they would have to be unionized. The International Brotherhood of fish monitors and scaled animal guards asscociation. IBFSCGA* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 13:20:28 Here's the IAMS story site [WARNING: graphic photos] Some of the less graphic photos are still very sad. Like these caged dogs. You can see the despair in their eyes. Check Mickey out. That dog has lost his mind, looks to me.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 13:30:25 laura, point taken, but he still isn't on the board or management of peta, and it's just an example of them half-associating themselves with that attitude, in spirit rather than practice. As i just said, i'm not interested in justifying anyone's actions but my own, although some overlapping ethics between me and peta (and probably even some things this guy said), are certainly fair game. Your statement about IAMS is frankly typical. Most americans happilly do all sorts of things which negatively impact all kinds of species (including other humans), but generally only feel a tiny sense of remorse when it comes to dogs. As for the comment by carpe diem, tre arrow, and carp wacker, i want to say you are all brilliant. In seventeen years of debating my choice to practice vegetarianism, I have never heard such witty arguments. Perhaps you could also try: "If god didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat".* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre Arrow - 2005-02-09 13:37:30If god didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. * * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 13:39:50 well done!* * * * * * * * * * * * Carp wacker - 2005-02-09 13:40:26 I'll give up my fishing pole when they pry my cold dead fingers from it.* * * * * * * * * * * * Carpe diem - 2005-02-09 13:41:28 Fishing poles don't kill fish, fisherman do.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 13:44:12 PETA sent this guy out to speak on their behalf. He's representing PETA, no matter what PETA might say about his views "not representing" theirs--it would be irresponsible of them to say that--they're making the airing of the views possible. And you are correct, Brett. My house is an abattoir and my alter ego a sort of Bluebeard. I love hurting people and animals. All the time. Oh--except dogs, that is. Yep, you pegged me all right.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 13:45:44 also very good. But you're sort of drifting away from actual justifications, though. I suggest you go read a Ted Nugent book and get some new material.* * * * * * * * * * * * Wang Dang Sweet puntang - 2005-02-09 13:47:26 Baby that's just what the Doctor ordered!* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-09 13:49:30 Don't let him bait you; he's just trolling...* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre Arrow - 2005-02-09 13:51:26 Can't worm my way out of this one. Maybe Brett will let me off the hook.* * * * * * * * * * * * Ypsidweller - 2005-02-09 13:55:20 Fish to live. Live to fish.* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre A - 2005-02-09 13:59:22 I'll have to scale back my comments. I was way out of line.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 14:01:57 laura, i don't know how clearly i can say this: I do not belong to peta. I do not care what peta does. They make stupid decisions, and i could care less if they endorse this fellow or not. E-mail them if you think someone needs to defend the decision. As for dogs, you're the one who listed it as the example of what you agree with. You also engaged in the peta technique (and even using their site), of linking to 'disturbing images'. My point is that there are hundreds of thousands of such images involving all types of species, and you chose what you chose because your proximity to dogs puts them in a different category than other animals. The other thing you did was to link to an example of dogs being needlessly tortured for pseudo-scientific research purposes,which is pretty easy to debate as pointless cruelty; But there are many more images out there of the cats and dogs of Korean food Markets, which I think is the cut-off point of logic, as many americans vehemently protest that activity while happily eating many other sorts of animals slaughtered by even less humane methods. * * * * * * * * * * * * Vince Gill - 2005-02-09 14:08:53Free all the fish now!* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-09 14:17:34 The self-righteousness is just breathtaking...* * * * * * * * * * * * Charley - 2005-02-09 14:18:41 These are all points we must try to tackle. He should come down off his perch.* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre - 2005-02-09 14:24:12 Forgive him Dan, for he knows not what he does.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 14:27:39 Keep it coming, folks. Get it out of your system. I've actually lost track of what the discussion is even about, now, to be honest. Laura- sorry you took it the wrong way, apparently, but consider it from my perspective. I've dealt with this debate, as i said, many times. The same arguments are always presented, the same visceral reactions among those who eat meat are always present. I posted a link to Maynard's fish-shitting precisely because i saw when you first posted the story where the thread would end up, and had actually hoped to derail it before i suddenly was put on the spot for the thousandth time to justify my ethical choices. I guess i failed. A good lesson can be shown here, i think. Look at all the conversations that take place on this blog. People defend gay rights, religious rights, non-religious rights, union rights, civil union rights, and the right to free speech. They will defend preserving forests, wildlife, cemeteries, paper mills, freighthouses, etc. They will also argue against war, economic cruelty, and the stripping people of health benefits or social security. Finally, they will question the authority of civic leaders, church leaders, government leaders, and other public figures. One would deduce from the above that this is what we might call a "Liberal"-leaning oasis online. But everything changes when animals get brought up. Suddenly the tone changes to instant derision, and everyone acts like religious zealots desperate to assert the correctness of their position, even if it seems contradictory to every other aspect of a humanistic philosophy.* * * * * * * * * * * * Earie Dearie - 2005-02-09 14:31:09We don't want Brett with good taste. We want Brett that tastes good.* * * * * * * * * * * * Tre - 2005-02-09 14:32:32 Lighten up. Don't be such a drag.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 14:41:23 speaking of how i taste, i can tell you precisely. I taste like pork, as does all human flesh. This was verified by the sudden popularity of pigs in mexico when the conquistadors came in and outlawed cannibalism, and the mexican elite were forced to find a similar-tasting dish.The survivors of the Donner Party verified this as well. Speaking of drags, hooks, and lines, my first and foremost suggestion to fisherman would be to quit trying to save money and skimping on the per-pound test rating of your lines, as they inevitably break and become permanent hazards to aquatic wildlife. * * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-09 14:47:21Fishing liscense fees go to preserve and protect waterways, pay for game wardens salaries to make sure game is taken in legal manners and that limits are imposed and adhered to. Biolators have to pay stiff fines and lose fishing priveledges. A fishing lisence in Michigan is around 40 bucks now. Muliplied by 30 years. When is the last time you gave a thousand dollars to protect fish and habitats?* * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-09 14:49:38 They also pay to stock rivers and lakes with fingerlings. I would say fisherman do more to help fish than dressing up on Main St Ann Arbor.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-09 14:52:34 My suggestion to you would be to dress up like a fish and hang out on Main St. I'll be sure not to see you while I'm fishing.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 14:55:28 YD is right of course. Hunters and fishermen are among our best stewards of the environment. Hunting and fishing licenses produce revenue that goes directly to protecting the environment, as does the money from voluntary hunters' societies like Pheasants Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, and Whitetails Unlimited, all of which have periodic fund-raisers. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 14:57:22 Oops, I meant Pheasants Forever.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-09 15:03:23 Brett - You have no freaking idea how most us who post here feel about animal rights. You took personal umbrage at several japes (which also occur with regularity on this blog), and decided then and there that we were all Ted Nugents. Heck, you even stated "Most americans happilly do all sorts of things which negatively impact all kinds of species (including other humans), but generally only feel a tiny sense of remorse when it comes to dogs." so that anthing we might say in our defense could be dismissed by you as disingenuous. All you have done is play the smug, holier-than-thou cartoon version of someone who purports to care for animals. And then you have the temerity to point out a "lesson" for the rest of us? Man, you have a lot of nerve. * * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 15:04:41As i understand it, most of the fees go to try and counterbalance the environmental impact of the behavior itself. It's like driving an SUV but donating to greenpeace, in the hopes it all balances out somehow, when it would be simpler to just not drive the suv in the first place. It is simply a method of assuring the perpetual ability of hunters, fishermen, etc. to continue their behavior, by keeping everything just barely safe and clean enough so as not to incur the wrath of environmentalists and legislators. I might add, the end result is that individual animals will continually be killed in the same or greater numbers, which is the main issue i have with the matter. * * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2005-02-09 15:07:36I think Brett got his ass beat a lot as a kid. His dad should have paid more attention to him and maybe took him fishing once and awhile. I would pity him, but don't really have the time.* * * * * * * * * * * * Duane - 2005-02-09 15:27:43 Can I confess something? I tell you this as an artist,I think you'll understand. Sometimes when I'm driving... on the road at night... I see two headlights coming toward me. Fast. I have this sudden impulse to turn the wheel quickly, head-on into the oncoming car. I can anticipate the explosion. The sound of shattering glass. The... flames rising out of the flowing gasoline.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 15:32:50 Dan- I meant no generalization concerning you or any regular poster to this blog, nor to laura herself. If you or anyone else feels any particular way about the issue, then please make an effort to jump in anytime. Look at the posts. It's disturbing. For every single point I try to make, there are ten angry responses. If nobody agrees with me, fine, but as I said above I assumed this to be the sort of place issues like this could be discussed intelligently without reversion to trolling attacks. What do those of you criticizing me want? Seriously. Do you want me stop engaging the conversation? Why? Because my tone bothers you, or the content of my posts, or what? I'm making pretty basic points you can find in a thousand other sources, none of which having anything to do with peta. I'm not making anything up, I'm not saying anything new, and sorry, but I'm not responsible for many of you suddenly getting so pissed off YD- thanks for the last comment about my childhood. It was very mature, completely on-topic and really put me in my place. * * * * * * * * * * * * YD - 2005-02-09 15:34:25You're welcome asshole* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-02-09 15:41:59 duane- woody allen called. he wants his script back. YD- what exactly is your issue with me that causes you to drop in civility with every single comment? Everybody- please stop fuming for a moment and try to answer some of the genuine questions i asked in my last two posts.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric * - 2005-02-09 15:52:07It looks as though brett is going to get an asterisk after his name too. Welcome to the club.* * * * * * * * * * * * Brett* - 2005-02-09 15:55:12 There you go. Everyone happy?* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-09 16:24:24 I sent a message to the fish. I told them "This is what I wish." The little fishes of the sea, They sent an answer back to me. The little fishes� answer was "We cannot do it, Sir, because�" I sent to them again to say "It will be better to obey." The fishes answered with a grin, "Why, what a temper you are in!" I told them once, I told them twice: They would not listen to advice. I took a kettle large and new, Fit for the deed I had to do. My heart went hop, my heart went thump: I filled the kettle at the pump. Then someone came to me and said, "The little fishes are in bed." I said to him, I said it plain, "Then you must wake them up again." I said it very loud and clear; I went and shouted in his ear. But he was very stiff and proud; He said "You needn�t shout so loud!" And he was very proud and stiff; He said "I�d go and wake them, if�" I took a corkscrew from the shelf; I went to wake them up myself. And when I found the door was locked, I pulled and pushed and kicked and knocked. And when I found the door was shut, I tried to turn the handle, but� Lewis Carroll* * * * * * * * * * * * addiann - 2005-02-09 17:28:14 Lewis Carroll is refreshing after all that personal poking and jabbing. Thanks, as usual, Raymond* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 17:35:32 yes, I had the same feeling; an elegant gesture as usual.* * * * * * * * * * * * Scott - 2005-02-09 17:52:47 Jeez, its like talking to my racist brother in here. Useless. Admittedly, we have serious feelings over each side of the issue, but the beauty of this site has always been the civilty at which we respond to each other. When that leaves, this might as well be a AIM chat room. Please give Laura the respect she deserves and gives all of us who post here. Make it a debate, not an argument. Leave the unfounded personal attacks and such out. Practice an open forum of conversation and dialogue, please. This is a seriuos issue that surrounds this entire country. We forgot how to communicate. By the way, I do angle occasioanlly, and enjoy cooking at home for many different reasons, not just cost and environment. * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott - 2005-02-09 17:53:14 Jeez, its like talking to my racist brother in here. Useless. Admittedly, we have serious feelings over each side of the issue, but the beauty of this site has always been the civilty at which we respond to each other. When that leaves, this might as well be a AIM chat room. Please give Laura the respect she deserves and gives all of us who post here. Make it a debate, not an argument. Leave the unfounded personal attacks and such out. Practice an open forum of conversation and dialogue, please. This is a seriuos issue that surrounds this entire country. We forgot how to communicate. By the way, I do angle occasioanlly, and enjoy cooking at home for many different reasons, not just cost and environment. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 17:56:41 Yes, I would like to regain that civility too--this is sound advice, thanks Scott.* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-02-09 18:08:03 Ever since it was mentioned that humans taste like pork, I've been eyeballing my officemates with renewed interest. Looks like my crockpot is going to be working overtime soon. Anyone have any recipes to share? Maybe I should buy a smoker a la Motel Hell. * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-09 18:27:56 "I'll stick with smokers al la Your Motel," he cracked.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-09 18:48:25 Raymond--good pun--that is indeed a grim-looking way-station, there by the Michigan Ave. bridge.* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-02-09 18:57:04 You wouldn't, perchance, be implying that there may be sordid activities underway at the illustrious Your Motel?* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-09 18:57:50 Actually, Public Art for Trolls at Frog Island.* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-09 18:59:30 as to your motel: been there done that* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-10 21:40:31 It's rather amazing to think that the whole world of neurosurgery came to be because of animal research--I hadn't known that. One rather hopes that every patient who walks again as a result also adopts a pet from the pound as payback.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-11 10:55:09 Oh, and one more thing, Brett, if you are still reading. Animals differ with regard to their level of awareness and consciousness and capacity for intelligence and thought. I say from what we know about their brains, not as some person with a proclivity for dogs because of my proximity to them (though I do have a proclivity, and my dog is laying under my feet as I type). But what that means is that it is perfectly reasonable to prefer some species to others; it's reasonable to object to primates being housed in individual cages in labs, but not to object to the same treatment for rats or mice. It's reasonable to be upset by the treatment of dogs by commercial dog producers but not to feel terrible about eating fish. I'm not saying that one *should* feel badly about the treatment of dogs in such circumstances (though I do), but there's no reason to believe that all animals are created equal. They are not. There is a reason that some species are well-suited to be pets whereas others are not. And there are reasons we feel kinship with some species over others. It is not all about proximity.* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: |
