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Comments:
Laura - 2005-01-25 09:42:21 It's not clear from the article that the AAHDC is involved in the NLC controversy. I do know that there is fierce neighborhood opposition to the NLC proposal, much of it having to do with parking. What the article did not mention is that the NLC wants to build a 600+ seat auditorium, but provide less than 20 on-site parking spaces (I have forgotten the exact number). This will force those driving to services (i.e., most of them) to park in the surrounding neighborhoods, already densely packed with cars belonging to the residents, and, on Sundays, with cars belonging to those attending services at the Presbyterian, Lutheran, and other churces already in the immediate area. Because most of the parking is across Washtenaw, people going to services at NLC will have to dodge fast-moving traffic on Washtenaw. A2 has already seen tragedy a couple of years ago when a couple of young women were struck by a car when they tried to cross Plymouth after attending services at the mosque there. Siting the NLC on Washtenaw is simply inviting further tragedy.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 10:23:37 You are right, Tom--it's not clear from the article that the HDC is directly involved (and I realized that when I posted this) but knowing their omnipresence over cases like these, and the group's power, I read between the lines and guessed that they were involved behind the scenes and pressuring the Planning Commission. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 10:39:22 You're certainly right about the parking--it's very crowded in the residential area on any day, and there's always a solid line of cars along Washtenaw on Sunday, from churchgoers. There just isn't the parking capacity in the area to allow this potentially 600-member (potentially 600-car) church. I wonder what sort of denomination "New Life" is, anyways...I have a sneaking suspicion I've heard of them before, and not in a flattering light. (Googles) They are a "charismatic, Bible-believing" sect that apparently takes the Bible literally.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-25 10:45:22 Ha! I already Googled them, the Ann Arbor congregation has its own site here.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 10:48:27 Very useful link, thanks Tom. "new life church is a ministry of great commission ministries" it says, sounding awfully corporate.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-25 11:08:59 The Great Commission is Jesus's final instruction to his disciples in Matthew 28:18-20: "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. "* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 11:11:38 I didn't know that was the meaning of "great commission"--thanks Tom. "Make disciples of all nations"...so one wonders how tiresomely aggressive our local New Life really is.* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-01-25 11:28:22 What's the story with the prominent Red Lobster t-shirt on the GCM site? Strange place for product placement. Eh, i'm probably reading too much into it.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 11:45:16 You are observant as always LF. Maybe the GCM kids are trying to distinguish themselves from the hardcore crowd [warning:hate- and obscenity-filled site, nsfw] Seafood lover Ypsidixit is very fond of all the tasty abominations pictured, especially mussels. * * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-01-25 12:14:02 Jeez Louise! - how did you find that site?* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-01-25 12:15:26 Churches often demand special rights. Churches frequently defy zoning and other laws claiming exemption from them according to the US law and its foundations. Churches exert the right to discriminate against select people, the right to execute specified "abominators," and the right to park in the roadway on Sunday. As I read the Consitution, churches must pay taxes just like any other business. Supposedly the damned government doesn't create state religions, but the government licenses and sanctions only its favored and approved religions. This "Make disciples of all nations" business sounds like Mr Bush's "fire" imagery. What's he gonna do, nuke 'em if they don't bow down to his dogma?* * * * * * * * * * * * addiann - 2005-01-25 12:17:34 Ohmygod. So to speak. I guess I'm better off just ignoring the "hardcore crowd". I wonder how Albert Ellis views this sort of stuff being out there for folks to "inform themselves" with. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 12:19:50 LF: a Google search of "red lobster" and "christian" (I originally thought maybe the New Life church had some kind of financial ties to the restaurant chain--OK, kinda silly, I know). (Ypsidixit is glad she's not the only one who says "Jeez Louise").* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 12:22:58 Raymond: It's a tad unclear to me why churches should be able to defy zoning laws, &c.--because they don't have to obey an "earthly" government, or the like?* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-01-25 12:27:44 Churches defy zoning laws because they are bullies. They represent a power which usurps mortal administration. Churches use "separation of church and state" to get their way, and of course oppose separation when they want to rule the land.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-25 13:30:46 I do think that churches that maintain significant charity activities should be tax exempt -- we have many soup kitchens in my city run out of church basements. However, I don't think anyone -- chuches included -- should be above the law. That includes zoning laws. BTW, New Life Church tried to build a several-thousand-seat cathedral with auditorium not far from me. The city bought the land parcel to prevent it from happening.* * * * * * * * * * * * Murph - 2005-01-25 15:39:23 Um, I've got to throw in about $0.08 worth here, due to poor facts. First off, the DetNews article is dead wrong on the NLC's proposal. I was at the Planning Commission meeting where this was discussed: they don't want to tear down the sorority at all. In fact, the changes they're proposing are largely invisible from the street--they want to do some interior renovation to the sorority, to change it from a residence to offices and meeting space, and build the auditorium as an _addition_ to the _back_ of the building. Second, a 600-seat auditorium does not mean 600 cars in this case. The congregation is nearly 100% UMich students, and the Church expects them to walk to services (it's, what, a five-minute walk to CCLittle?). In fact, the Church says, the reason they want to build their auditorium here instead of out in the boonies is so that their members don't have to drive. Additionally, NLC, as part of their proposal, worked out a deal to lease space in the Forest St. parking structure, 3 blocks away, during Sunday services, so that members who were driving could park there. Third, churches are by no means exempt from zoning laws! (Pause to skim law review article on RLUIPA for memory refreshing...check.) Even under the "oh so local power destroying" RLUIPA that the DetNews is crying about, churches are subject to most of the zoning laws (and all of the laws that aren't land use related, like building codes). Until the RLUIPA was passed in 2000, churches were subject to _all_ zoning laws, as long as they were "neutral and of general applicability" (as in, they didn't care that it was a church, just about the size of the structure and the number of people in it). RLUIPA grants special exceptions to zoning--not total immunity from zoning--only in cases where "substantial burden" can be shown by the church (more than just "some burden"), and then only when the government cannot show that the regulation in question is the "least restrictive" land use regulation available to achieve the government purpose that the regulation in question is meant to advance. RULIPA is still too new to have much judicial history behind it, but my reading is that it is a pretty limited law. Let's not all get up in tizzies over churches muscling in on innocent towns with complete disregard for zoning, because that's just not the case. Now, the minutes aren't up on the city's website yet (the Planning Commission meeting was in November), so I can't double-check my memory, but my impression was that the Church had made a colossal effort to comply with the Historic District's concerns about the appearance of the structure and with the planning staff's concerns about transportation to and from the Church. The denial of the permit seemed to be motivated more than anything else by a neighbor's lawyer pointing out that a chimney on the structure extended 2 feet too close to the property line under the zoning, and the neighbors would sue the city for this violation if the Church was approved. It was noted that the chimney was not too close to the neighbor's property, but too close . . . to the Angell School driveway. Oh, the horror. Enough to sue over, said the lawyer. Even in my newfound zeal for neighborhood communication, I think the NLC case was handled badly, with the _neighbors_, not the church, strongarming the Planning Commission. * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-01-25 15:52:22 Well, that's cleared up. I still wouldn't want to live next door to it. It wouldn't want to live next door to me, either. I don't see that anyone said that churches are exempt from zoning laws, only that they sometimes resist and fight them.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 16:11:04 Once again, a very valuable and informative post by an expert in the field--that helps a lot, Murph, thank you. It's hard to believe the Det. News made that large a mistake. The hassling over the chimney seems ridiculous to me, but maybe they're grasping at that as the only available straw to block the apparently unwelcome development of the church.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-25 16:15:34 I still can't get over the idea that there are 600 students at UM who are members of this church, or several thousand in my area. It seems weird. Oh well, what do I know from weird, the Scientologists just bought a Masonic Temple/Furniture store near me and are outfitting it to be a headquarters. And Murph, have you discontinued your blog, or is the link at AAIO wrong?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 16:18:21 I happened to stumble into a New Life campus meeting once while hunting down a free movie on campus, oddly enough, and I was really uncomfortable. It struck me as like a cult, and the people were really, really into it. I skedaddled.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-25 16:22:00 But, more to the point of Anna's comment, I do wonder why this church exerts such a pull on so many students. Why is it so appealing to them? Why is it growing so fast that one of the (large) auditoriums in MLB is no longer big enough for the meetings?* * * * * * * * * * * * Andy - 2005-01-26 07:01:17 What they hell were they doing in the MLB, BTW? Is the U in the habit of providing outside groups (sounds like more than a student club) huge meeting spaces? Or were they renting it? Is that how it worked for, say, the groups who ran films in MLB auditoriums (during my student days in the late 80's)? And, oh, those darned Scientologists! They have so much fantastic real estate all across the country, and it really boggles my mind cuz I've never met anyone who was actually a member. Is "member" the right word, or would something like Wal-Mart's "associate" be more accurate? They are a strange phenomenon. What do they believe?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 09:07:45 Andy, I'm not sure what Scientologists believe; Scientology has always struck me as a cross between Amway and a Dale Carnegie course. And I don't know the room-renting/borrowing protocol. Animania has their screenings in the MLB each month, and they don't charge anything, so I'm guessing that student groups (or nominally student groups) can sign up to use rooms for free.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-26 09:14:38 Andy, the scientologists won't TELL you what they believe unless you join -- classic cult behavior. And you only learn as you progress, and progressing involves very large 'donations'. We actually have a number of them who've moved into my neighborhood. One of them was quoted in the newspaper as saying, "There are a lot of misconceptions about our religion. It's like people just refuse to keep an open mind'". (and wallet...). I'm sure the NLC rents the auditorium. Beside, the U subsidizes lots of religious activity, at least I think it does. Doesn't Hillel get money from the U? And isn't there a U-affiliated Lutheran Church on the corner of Huron and State? And don't they also have a Catholic ministry? I know at my current school they just decided to make the service in the large chapel on campus non-denominational -- it was congregational for hundreds of years before that, and we're not a denominational university!* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 09:20:00 Well, if they're not forthcoming about what they believe, then, duh, Mr. Quote, there will be misconceptions! To add to the religious institutions on campus, there's the "campus chapel" and St. Mary's student parish. Strikes me as a bit weird if not downright illegal that a religious institution would get money from the largely publicly-funded U-M.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 09:25:51 Just as Anna said, on the official Scientology site, the "description of scientology" is just a glowing teaser. They say nothing about what it actually entails. * * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-26 09:30:31 I'm fairly certain that the NLC rents the MLB from the UoM (thus exceeding my TLA quotient), although right now I can't find where I read that. The church at Huron and State is a Methodist, not a Lutheran, church. While many denominations have campus ministries (e.g., St. Mary's, the Campus Chapel on Washtenaw, the University Lutheran church on Washtenaw, the campus ministry of First Presbyterian [my church]), none of them receive funding from the U, all are funded by their respective denominations. I don't know about Hillel, but I would be surprised if they receive any money from the U.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 09:34:33 Tom: I'm dopey. What is "TLA"? Total load of acronyms? Just wondering. Also, you have a way of coming around and kind of straightening everything out, as you've done before in other posts--thank you for the clarification.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-26 11:23:49 Total load of acronyms - pretty close! TLA = Three-Letter Acronym. Then there are xTLAs - extended Three-Letter Acronyms.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 11:25:49 aha. Thanks Tom. * * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-26 13:28:45 I always wondered about those "University of Michigan" churches and their real relationship with the UM. Seems weird that the U even allows them to use "University of Michigan" -- I mean, if the U doesn't give them funding, then they're just "close to the University". Oops, and yes, I guess it is "parish" not "ministry" when you're talking about the Catholic Church.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-26 13:31:53 Oh, and my nondenominational unnamed E. Coast school has a Chaplain on staff plus Sunday services on campus in the chapel. We also have a divinity school. I guess since we're private, we can get away with it (though of course a large part of the budget comes ultimately from the tax payers). * * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-26 13:51:14 Anna, I don't know of any churches whose formal name contains "University of Michigan". There is a University Chapel, University Lutheran Church, etc., but no "University of Michigan (something) Church" that I know of. Many Ivy League schools (for example, Harvard and Yale) were established specifically as theological schools.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-26 20:44:06 That's interesting--didn't know they were established as theo. schools.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-27 08:40:53 Harvard Divinity School, Yale Divinity School * * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-01-27 09:49:08 Well, yes, Harvard and Yale and many others were established as theological schools -- reading the bible and educating Christians were major reasons one would pursue an education in those days. That's in the context of cities like Boston and New Haven being established essentially as relgious communities (e.g., in most New England towns, people who were not members of the dominant church could not vote). Regardless of how schools were established, it's interesting to me that schools that get a large %age of their operating budgets from taxpayer funds can have denominational religious services on campus, whereas public high schools can't (to my knowledge) do that.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-27 09:52:39 That is an interesting distinction, now that you mention it. If I remember correctly, Pioneer High School has a Christian Bible study group that meets in a school classroom.* * * * * * * * * * * * John - 2005-01-27 20:24:07 Re denominational services in public school buildings, Ann Arbor has multiple congregations that meet in school auditoria (mainly middle schools--right size, I guess). Re Scientology, they've successfully sued to block posting of their expensive materials on the web, but from what I've read the gist of it is that 1) we're all haunted by our soul's sufferings in past lives, which can be relieved by paying enough to Scientology, and 2) all our souls arrived here ages ago on a spaceship--in other words, we're all aliens. * * * * * * * * * * * * John - 2005-01-27 20:24:19 Re denominational services in public school buildings, Ann Arbor has multiple congregations that meet in school auditoria (mainly middle schools--right size, I guess). Re Scientology, they've successfully sued to block posting of their expensive materials on the web, but from what I've read the gist of it is that 1) we're all haunted by our soul's sufferings in past lives, which can be relieved by paying enough to Scientology, and 2) all our souls arrived here ages ago on a spaceship--in other words, we're all aliens. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-28 09:31:04 Mr. H. flatters Ypsidixit greatly by stopping by. Thanks for the explanation. Ah. Well, that's reasonable; who wouldn't find that credible, I wonder?* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2005-01-29 13:40:39 john's dead-on about scientology. If you have trouble finding out about them, just look up the subgenius church because their theology/cosmology is very similar, with the difference being that the subgenii are absolutely correct, of course. As for the problems involving the zoning and HDC issues, i simply suggest the church should give their chimney a new life.....as art!* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: |