|
Comments:
raymond - 2005-03-04 07:29:39 Unfortunately, those cultures were wrong and ended up ravished by neurological diseases caused by prions* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 08:59:31 Raymond: I had the *exact* same thought. One does wonder. I believe these patients' testimony. They have no reason for making it up, and it's just too strangely parallel in these multiple examples.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 09:00:08 LF: that could well be; that's how mad cow is spread as you well know.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-04 09:10:45 I'm sorry, but hearts don't have memories, and there's no way for biographical memory information (which isn't held in heart cells to begin with) to be transmitted to neurons, that do. The scientist in me is just not buying this.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 09:24:36 I can see your side, Anna. However, of course, scientific discovery is perpetually ongoing, and even now, we know so little. There's never a point when we will know everything, and we are still often surprised. One of the doctors in the article posits a DNA-related theory. I just find it notable that multiple transplant patients report, for no personal gain or any other reason, weird symptoms later confirmed, by donor families, as distinct traits of the donors. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-03-04 09:32:30 ...and yet, these people are having these experiences. I have heard of this interesting (and creepy) phenomenon in the past, so I imagine it's quite a bit more widespread than these folks here. It does seem to run counter to what we know of human organs, and their capabilities. But, our understanding of the world is by no means complete. There was a time (not so very long ago) when people could not explain how disease was spread, or the rising and setting of the sun. I'm not ready to discount it as beyond the realm of possiblity...* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-03-04 09:33:52 Oops, I guess Laura beat me to it...* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 09:35:09 Have you heard of this before, Dan? I had not and was fascinated. One wonders where, exactly, does personality reside? In a chemical soup in the brain? In the imaginary construct called the "soul"? Or mysteriously spread throughout one's body in some as-yet not-understood way?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 09:35:58 Oops, sorry Dan.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-03-04 12:00:50 I remember hearing about this first in a news report in the late 1990's. My mom and I talked about it, and she said she been hearing "stories" anecdotally about it for years. She also said it was a big reason why she was very leery about organ transplantation. Since that time, I've heard or read about it here and there, also anecdotally. (now trying to find stuff on web that pre-dates posting article). I also know there was a feature film several years ago that followed this storyline in its plot. And while I know that a movie is not necessarily science, it is an indication that this type of occurrence is present in the zeitgeist. Your question of where personality resides is interesting and, it seems to me, unanswerable. We have documented an increase in activity levels in various parts of the brain when the mind performs certain functions (talking, thinking, speaking, dreaming, etc.), but we have yet to find the location of the mind. We like to assume its proximity to the brain because when someone's brain suffers physical death, our perception of that person's consciousness either ceases entirely, or abates somewhat, depending on your views of the life of consciousness after death. But we can't truly say with any certainty that consciousness is located in the brain, near the brain, or even limited to the skull because we have not thus far discovered a physical manifestation of consciousness. To my mind (wherever it may be), it does not seem logical that aspects of a decedent's personality would manifest in an organ we do not normally associate with perception, but that's a clinical reading of the situation, and may other extra natural realms of possibility. I mean, heck, we associate emotions with the heart. Maybe this is not pure romanticism after all. _____________________________* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 12:05:06 Dan: It is fascinating that your mom had heard of this weird phenomenon and was actually leery of it. "We have documented an increase in activity levels in various parts of the brain when the mind performs certain functions (talking, thinking, speaking, dreaming, etc.), but we have yet to find the location of the mind...we can't truly say with any certainty that consciousness is located in the brain, near the brain, or even limited to the skull because we have not thus far discovered a physical manifestation of consciousness." Very thought-provoking, Dan.* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-03-04 12:37:06 Prions? I thought the cannibals died out because they ate each other up.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-04 14:53:23 Occam's razor says it's wishful thinking or self-fulfilling profecy, getting a new lease on life, developing new interests as one gets older. DNA is just about the most complicated explanation one could think of, even if it's the most interesting. Dualism is intuitively appealing because we were are wired to believe in bodies and souls (see Descartes' Baby, by Paul Bloom). But the truth is that the brain gives rise to everything in our mental experience. Yes, sure, it's recieving input from the body, but without the brain you would have no experience at all. The soul is the brain. We haven't found brain activity relating to the "soul" because we haven't been able to do the right experiment, (because the "soul" isn't just one cognitive process that can be isolated, like speach production). We haven't failed to find it because it's not there, we've failed to find it because we can't even agree on what the soul actually is.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-04 14:54:31 er, speech.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 15:03:36 Well, yes, there is that pesky Occam's Razor (sigh), sternly shaving away the shaggy beard of conjecture (ow!). I have to say I am pleased that a neuroscientist (if I am remembering your field correctly, Anna) is here, contributing a very articulate and expert opinion. Thank you Anna. I doubt that that Occam guy gets invited to many parties though. At any rate.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 15:08:25 Hm. Is DNA the most complicated explanation possible? We're sequencing genomes right and left. Every day practically on the radio I hear about a new genome being sorted out. DNA was terra incognita to us a few decades ago, but it's fast becoming a familiar back yard. Maybe the DNA explanation will seem more uncomplicated as our familiarity with it continues to advance.* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-03-04 16:05:18 RE: my earlier post, I meant to say those cultures were ravaged by neurological (TSE) diseases, not ravished Ravished makes it sound like a good time.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 16:15:15 LF: Neurological diseases of the type you mention often present symptoms similar to Alzheimer's or just progressive forgetfulness/disorientation. It's conceivable that in a cannibalistic society any such diseases might be regarded as just symptoms of the aging process, not a disease. I am curious to know what cultures you're thinking of in general, LF. In my case Easter Island comes to mind. After the deforestation of the island, and once cannibalism began (out of desperation), an ecstatic religious cult arose called the Birdman cult. Part of the some of the Birdman rites involved cannibalism, if I remember right--but by that time there was little else to eat on the island. One wonders about the possible ties of cause and effect between all these events.* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-03-04 16:35:47 I avoid eating animal products. Maybe that accounts for my ravishing vegetative state of mind.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-04 16:39:11 I eat animal products...what's that buzzing noise?* * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-03-04 16:44:11 Flee, Orestes, flies.* * * * * * * * * * * * Lima bean - 2005-03-04 16:54:55 (at least try to get a running sartre).* * * * * * * * * * * * LF - 2005-03-05 08:33:34 "According to Sartre, it is not possible for man to flee from the world. To regard oneself as being totally detached from the world is to be in bad faith."* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-05 09:51:33 I looked around for a bit of context for that quote, to try and get a handle on what he was talking about when he said that, but couldn't find any. Personally I find it ironic for an artist to say that since one of the functions of art for the viewer is to (temporarily) flee from the world. But anyways.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-05 16:40:53 Just because we can understand DNA doesn't mean that DNA is a straightforward explanation for how memories would get from one person to another because it would be a very complicated series of steps, indeed. Anyway. (yes, I'm a neuroscientist). Interesting -- you eat animals. Do you remember the barn, the field behind it? Having the other chickens pick on you? If one can get human memories from human organs, why not animal memories from animal flesh? Just as much DNA there... We should all be filled with memories of swimming in oceans, and ambling across fields rocky fields. Even cheese should probably be giving us cow memories. Well, I recognize your point about Occam's Razor. But after all, the coding of donor memories/habits in an organ is a fairly subtle and complicated phenomena, I think. It would make sense to me if such a phenomena arose through only a complicated mechanism. Your question about remembering the barns is a good ones. However, when I eat a kidney, my digestive system breaks it down into useable mush till the whole thing's gone. That is different from a whole, living kidney being implanted in my body and continuing to live. So this whole phenomena of remembering the donor is still an intriguing mystery to me. I don't think these people are making up these startlingly specific stories.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-05 20:32:55 I don't think that they are making them up, either, I just think there are other ways to explain the stories and it's especially unlikely to me given what I know about how assemblies of neurons code and maintain memories. Plus, the nature of memories is multidimensional and fractionated and they don't pop out fully formed -- they're reconstructed. It's just very hard to explain how DNA from an organ could create a fully formed memory of a skill or episode. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-03-06 18:34:52 There are other ways to explain the (highly specific) stories if the DNA explanation proves improbable. I'd say we don't yet know what those ways are, clearly--the doctors in the article didn't. It's still too weird for me to dismiss as a bunch of grandstanding transplantees. I hope we do find out.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-09 14:31:39 The best explanation I know is that humjans are natural coincidence and correlation detectors. We are hard-wired to see order and coinicidence and relationships -- even when they aren't there are or just chance.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-03-09 15:15:01 The best explanation I know is that humjans are natural coincidence and correlation detectors. We are hard-wired to see order and coinicidence and relationships -- even when they aren't there are or just chance.* * * * * * * * * * * * KJ - 2005-03-10 11:30:45 I don't imagine ingesting a person's organs would have the same effect as permanently integrating them as living organs into your body's system like in a transplant. Our organs communicate what they need to our brain and they often manifest as cravings of some sort. Perhaps these people's hearts were accustomed to the nutrients/chemicals found in certain foods and when it found itself in a foreign environment, it signalled to eat a certain type. Likewise, the heart of the extreme sports junkie was probably accustomed to surges of adrenaline. When alcoholics physically need more alcohol, they become mentally obsessed with it as well. I don't believe that explains everything, certainly not the girl with nightmares, but it may explain it a bit more.* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: |