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Comments:
Anna - 2005-02-23 13:14:37 Yikes. I just thought Mr. W's comment was weird. The "less fortunate"? As if shooting someone, say, is sheer bad luck, and we should feel sorry for the perps. Something about this statement just grates me the wrong way. It seems patronizing, too. There are a lot of roads that lead to jail, but this guy makes it sound like we should pity (translation: look down on) those poor benighted prisoners. Pity is a form of contempt, I think. At any rate. * * * * * * * * * * * * Michael McC. - 2005-02-23 16:01:23 Lawyers go to prison, poor people go to jail. Very few lawyers in jail. And why build more of either? I'd rather see 'em picking up trash or working a job during the day and wearing a tether at night. Many of the people in jail are not a direct threat to anyone, and over half of the people in prison (by some counts) are non-violent drug offenders. Some people have to be there, but not all.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-23 16:18:17 I don't get it. I thought everyone who'd gone through trial went to Prison, and that Jail was where you went during the trial. Also, why shouldn't nonviolent drug offenders go to jail? Just curious. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 16:18:57 Michael: Funny, I was just thinking over the issue of prison labor today. Given that we jail more people than any other industrialized country, and given the prevalence of prison labor, I have to wonder who receives the money from the sale of prison-made goods. It's not the prisoners. Anyways, I'm afraid I don't understand your prison/jail distinction--is there a difference in meaning? How does one decide which person is OK to walk out with a tether? Would you be OK with all non-violent drug offenders being tethered & let free? I would not, but I see a big difference between the relatively harmless pot and meth.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 16:34:44 Anna: I had the same idea about jail, then after sentence, prison.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 18:39:53 Naive idiots. Kind of sad, but expected from sheltered, elitist sheeple. You've just proved that the $200,000.00 in propaganda worked... on a few that is.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 19:18:52 from the Cato Institute. Clowns. (not you Mike McC.)* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 19:20:58 Crapass blog doesn't support html - get with it already... http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-208.html* * * * * * * * * * * * Scott - 2005-02-23 19:21:44 Comming for someone who has a family member that actually works there, I will let you know that the Hogback Hilton in its subteranian environemnt is an awful place that lacks any sort of life. They house everyone there from muderers(blockbuster dude) to DUI candidates(my former neighbor a few weeks ago)to celebreties(Ron Jeremy). Saying that, the conditions there are horrible and the any space is used to house and barely feed these "less fortunate" souls. I for one think that we need to have an overall look at what exactly is the cause for the people to end up in jail in the first place. I understand that crime will happen, but the amount that we dispense as a society is frightful and needs attention. * * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 19:30:05 Props to Scott!@!@!@!* * * * * * * * * * * * Scott - 2005-02-23 19:49:43 "One ounce of action beats a ton of words" -Martin Sexton* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 20:38:20 Laura spouts off, without thinking about what the hell she's talking about. She jumps to conclusions. When she even bothers to read (kindo of, I guess) what she's responding to, she picks and chooses, conveniently ignoring anything salient to the actual point being discussed and just throws in a non sequitur to make her sound "educated." "Journalist" my ass - she just feeds the trolls she agrees with.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 20:56:36 Scott, I didn't even realize it had an underground section. That sounds miserable. The man who ran down that lady on Whittaker had a warrant out on him, and a recent news story quoted a Washtenaw Co. policeman saying they don't even actively pursue warrants because there's no place in the jail to put them. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 21:06:56 Speaking of trolls, looks like you snagged a couple of nasty ones, Laura. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 21:33:27 Dan: may I ask, did you also have elections down in your county yesterday? Anything interesting on the ballot?* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 21:38:42 If we did, I was not aware. So I really hope we didn't, else I will be very embarrassed...* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 21:54:25 Michigan just passed a law making special elections happen 4 times a year on specified dates. I think previously it was more or less random dates. However, I still don't know why they don't make voting dates on Saturdays, or even the whole weekend. It's a bit of a pain to squeeze in voting on a workday. Anyways, I don't know if all counties voted on things or not. * * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 21:54:43 Same old, same old - nothing actually addressed IN THE THREAD was answered... pick a little example (that "little old lady" - whom you never met) to prove the whole (Lock 'em ALL up - they MUST deserve it - the PERPS) then blah, blah, blah... kind of a BUSH league I move would say. You're no better than Rove ya frikkin' skank... And Dan - I'm already embarrassed you live in my city frikkin' aplogist no account whore... * * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 21:56:50 Print another poem - cause I need to come too!* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 21:58:49 Actually, Dan, come to think of it my folks live in your county, and, having just talked to my mom, she didn't mention it--and she and Pop always vote. So I'm guessing maybe you didn't have elections. I'm sure you would've heard about it. At any rate.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:00:42 And so long as we're on the subject of my home turf Dan I'm just gonna steal a second to mention (without naming place names, for the sake of privacy) that my folks were so impressed with the new building--you know the one, just north of the junior high/high school complex--they actually took pictures of it and sent me a whole stack. It is indeed very nice-looking. Looks like they did a bang-up job. Lots more space.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:11:22 You remind me of my ADD brother. Is this a blog where the crap you post can be discussed fer keerist sake? Or do you have a fucking email account?* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:13:28 Talk about Chicken Shit.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:25:40 The new bldg is nice. I have yet to see more than the lobby (voted there on Nov. 2), but I've heard it's pretty cool. Maybe this weekend... Glad to hear I didn't miss an election, too. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-23 22:26:54 That would be an ideal spot to vote. Up here it's in a church--not the sanctuary, but a tiny lobby. It's ridiculous. They even had the nat'l elections in there. Took me over two hours that time and there were lines like you wouldn't believe.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:27:31 You mean, Dan, - who wants to actually talk to someone who DISAGREES with you? Does the topic of this thread mean nothing? - Or is it as I thought a stupid circle jerk w/you and your moronic, myopic little internet friend? You're both slanderous - of which is provable - why not let your intellect shine a little rather than whine away the night as is your wont? Pissant little Danny?* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:30:47 It took us about an hour to vote. I was working in another precinct down here that day, and the lines were pretty quick there. We heard that things were much worse over the state line. Like two hours plus...* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:38:24 Why don't you just call her?* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:39:41 Oh - and you are LYING about the lines.* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:41:24 Pussy kissass liar - you're kinda funny* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:42:03 Give us another poem so we can come too!* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:43:02 But most of the people were pretty friendly, considering all of the mud slinging back and forth. So that helped. * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:44:20 But most of the people were pretty friendly, considering all of the mud slinging back and forth. So that helped. * * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 22:56:35 So... Nothing about the CATO Intitute I sited... A little bit about some fake "I couldn't vote" crap, attempting to explain why the "people" didn't vote your way, courtesy of your idiot friend "Dan"... Why don't you post another story of death in Ypsi from a century and a half ago again for us "Laura" and then tell us what the fuck you're doing for Ypsi NOW?* * * * * * * * * * * * Finn Arbor - 2005-02-23 23:10:41 Ah well - goin' to bed now kiddies. If you can actually discuss the topic at hand feel free to post. If not, feel free to get mocked when I get around to readin' this, whatchacallit, so-called blog. Guten nacht, f'tards!* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-24 00:54:14 For the record, a variety of opinions are welcome at Ypsidixit. However, abusive, insulting, or threatening posts do not merit a response. To the kind readers of Ypsidixit: please do not acknowledge or, in any way, respond to abusive, insulting, or threatening posts. Future posts of that nature will be deleted.* * * * * * * * * * * * Scott - 2005-02-24 05:43:16 was there a prblem here Laura? I thought I saw my narrow minded, racist brother earlier, but that was an abirition. * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-24 07:30:13 The Russian exchange student whom we hosted some years ago was appalled by the design of our newer schools. "They have no windows! They look like prisons. They feel like tombs inside." Lincoln School District's millage to expand failed as did the jail millage. Meanwhile, Ypsi township potentates are elated by the passage of their pot-o-gold. They claim a landslide approval. After all, around 4,500 persons voted, approving the proposals by 55ish-60something%.* * * * * * * * * * * * Michael McC. - 2005-02-24 08:10:24 Just to hopefully clarify...sentences of less than a year are served in jail, not prison. People with money get bond and don't sit in jail until their trial, poor people often do. And I don't think that anywhere near all non-violent drug offenders belong in prison. The rich drug users hardly ever get charged with an offense, let alone do time. So we're building jails and prisons for poor people more often than not. And we're not anywhere near the rehab vs. punishment argument yet.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-24 09:07:33 I agree with you about the class/race inequities, Michael, but one could just as easily argue that the book should be thrown at wealthy offenders as well as at poor ones. Illegal drugs create lots of crime, and the users of those drugs create the market. Personally, I'd be for decriminalizing drugs that aren't highly associated with violence or the commission of other crimes, but I am not for just not enforcing existing laws. We should be changing the laws, not their enforcement.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-24 09:08:59 And personally, I think that prison conditions are something we ought to address -- *no one* deserves to be sexually or physically assaulted in jail, and we shouldn't have a system that allows prison guards to look the other way.* * * * * * * * * * * * Michael McC. - 2005-02-24 09:35:49 Book-throwing at wealthy people? Ain't never gonna happen. And anyway, I'm not talking about enforcement, but punishment. Keeping people working and monitoring their behavior is a lot more positive socially than putting 'em in the yard to lift weights and mess with the littlest inmates. And yes, my theory is that there is more male-on-male rape in prison than there is male-female rape on the street. Plus it's repetitive and cultural, not just one-time assault. Truly obscene. So we could save money and protect vulnerable people with more tethers, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-24 09:38:48 No Escape* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2005-02-24 10:49:54 Why won't book-throwing at wealthy people ever going to happen? My understanding is that cocaine crimes (more likely in the wealthy) and crack crimes (more likely in the poor) aren't treated equally, but if they were, more wealthy would be going to prison. Why not change the law? Never underestimate the power of schadenfreude -- the police and prosecutors don't love the wealthy any more than they love the poor. Anyway, I'm for keeping people working and monitoring their behavior when possible, but how many cases would that keep out of prison? Do you have numbers? I'm honestly pretty open-minded about this issue; don't feel that strongly either way. I'd like to be convinced it's workable and would make a difference in the numbers.* * * * * * * * * * * * Murph - 2005-02-24 10:55:32 Laura, I think that Woiwode's comment, while a little over-simplified, is generally correct. If a jail facility is bursting at the gills, the law enforcement types have to make a decision about who to lock up and who not - so only the people who really really *need* to be locked up get that way. If a jail facility has plenty of space, there's no such incentive - we can round up everybody, and feel free to hand out jail terms. The bigger the jail, the more likely we are to lock up the chronic parking ticket recipient for a few days to "teach him a lesson", and less likely to lock up the first-time marijuana possession offender for a month or so. Limited jail space forces us to make decisions about what really deserves incarceration and what doesn't - decisions that law enforcement doesn't like to make, and that they wouldn't make if they didn't have to. I have absolutely no data to back up this assertion, but I would guess that the people who are more likely to get locked up when we have plenty of capacity and don't have to make decisions are people of lower economic means - driving without insurance, shoplifting, drug possession, etc. I think that's what Woiwode's trying to say. Now, there is a potential problem of hitting the point where we can't even keep locked up the people who need to be locked up. I haven't yet been convinced that's the case in Washtenaw. (Maybe about halfway convinced.)* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-24 11:11:27 Raymond: I've heard other people make that school-jail comparison. Michael: Keeping people working, and monitoring them, is indeed a lot more positive socially. However I have the impression that the types of environments that encourage crime don't offer many job opportunities. Once this person is back in their environment, whether it's backwoods Michigan, sprinkled with meth labs, or a burned-out urban city center, it seems to me there's mighty little for them to grab on to.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-24 11:21:57 Murph: I'm not sure that's what Woiwode was trying to say: that, given plenty of jail capacity, people of lower economic means are more likely to be locked up. He made no mention in his mass-email about economics. In general the vagueness of his arguments and the proliferation of exclamation marks made me wonder if he had another unspoken agenda. At any rate, the email is posted below. "Polls are open for a special election in Washtenaw county! VOTE NO ON PROPOSAL A!! Go here to find your polling place: Proposal A will create a tax to give over 300 million dollars to expand the Washtenaw County Jail, expanding the jail by 200 beds. Crime in Washtenaw County has one down in recent years. If we build a giant jail, as has been proven in community after community across the country, we will begin to incarcerate more people to fill it. The math does not add up. Don't let taxpayers money go to locking up more of Washtenaw County's less fortunate. VOTE NO ON PROPOSAL A!!! Find your polling place here: My favorite phrase from the jail campaign was the headline in the AA News which screeched CRIMINALS LOVE CROWDED JAIL. A picture of men huddled on cots in a stark gymnasium illustrated the claim.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-24 11:43:25 Murph: As the county continues to gain in population it seems inevitable we'll reach that point soon. Raymond: That is a totally baffling headline. What on earth is the News trying to say? * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2005-02-24 11:55:35 As far as I can tell, the News was trying to tell us that if we don't cough up some cash to expand the jail, the crooks will all be set loose to steal pies from our windowsills and snatch handbags in the malls. For a good time, drop in at the HB Hilton lobby around visiting time. Watch families and loved ones begging for news of and time with their dearly incarcerated. Imagine those about whom no one cares who get no outside visitors.* * * * * * * * * * * * Murph - 2005-02-24 12:13:28 Hmmm. No, not the most eloquently argued of e-mails, was it? Calling it "inevitable that we'll reach that point soon" seems to assume that there's a constant rate of crime per capita (and a constant rate of incarceration per crime), and no role for prevention (either by addressing causes of crime or by limiting opportunity) or for deterrance (whether by displaying tough sentencing records or, say, prominant neighborhood watch programs). Larry K. chastised me for saying it over at ArborUpdate, but I still believe that if our public officials believe that a linear increase in crime with population increase is unavoidable, and that expanding the jail is the only way to deal with it, then we need new public officials.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-02-24 14:11:56 You are right Murph; it was an assumption, though one that, roughly speaking, I don't think is inaccurate. However, I don't think that expanding the jail is the only and inevitable response. There is a role as you say for prevention and deterrance programs. As a part of that whole picture, however, it still seems true, based on all I've read about it, that the jail is not adequate right now. * * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: |