Dan Arbor - 2005-01-03 21:46:54
This is really a pretty cool idea. It's equal parts kite, water wheel, and windmill. Simple design, common materials, cheap source of fuel to run it...how is it that this is not already in use? I can think of a couple places in the world known for their constant wind.
Fossil fuels pollute, and their cumulative effects are taking a terrible toll on our environment. And fossil fuel supplies are finite. 'Peak Oil' is looming...
If the fossil fuels run low or out before we have working alternative fuel and power-producing technologies in place, this world will get pretty grim in a hurry.
But ideas like this give me hope... If you have a few bucks, it might pay to invest in alternatives to fossil fuels now, hmmm?* * * * * * * * * * * *
Laura - 2005-01-03 23:27:09Ideas like this give me hope, too. There's a reason why I bike through the January rain from the water tower, though I have a perfectly good car, and truck, too. We have to stop polluting.
I wish my home had been built to take advantage of natural forces, such as sunlight. As it is, it's just a crackerbox home plopped on a site with no thought as to how to maximize solar heat with lots of southern windows, &c.
At any rate, this guy tested the kite setup on a Dutch beach and it apparently worked well. I'm hoping it will prove to be a viable green-energy model.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 09:01:58
Unfortunatlely, wind-power projects using wind turbines are running into a lot of resistance wherever they are proposed. Opposition is usually based on a couple of things: killings of migratory birds who get sliced up by the turbine blades, and aesthetics. Wind turbine farms really clutter up the landscape, or seascape in the case of a project proposed to built in the sea near Martha's Vineyard. I don't know if this Dutch proposal deals with these problems or not.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-01-04 09:44:58
There must be a way to flag hese turbines somehow to alert the birds. California has fields of streamlined windmills, and I have never heard or read anything about their danger to animals. I wonder if this issue might be a tad overblown...?
As far as aesthetics go, I'd much rather view a field of turbines on a blustery coastline, than, say, a refinery on the same spot. For me, there is no contest here. Wind turbines look like futuristic flying craft, while a refinery or coal burning plant is a poisonous blight. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Laura - 2005-01-04 10:25:42Tom: I've heard of the Martha's Vineyard project. But wasn't it planned for far out to sea, beyond even the horizon? Perhaps I'm misremembering.
I have to agree with Dan: I find a lot of beauty in big white futuristic windmills--they are like sculpture. I can put up with their profile on the landscape if I know they're making greener energy. * * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 10:37:04
The issue of wind turbines killing birds is quite controversial. Here are a couple of links: Green Energy Ohio California lawsuit As for the aesthetics issue, people living near wind farms get quite exercised over the fact that they have to look at them. See this article. Whether these issues are legitmate or not, they have to be dealt with or wind power has no future.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 10:46:08
Hm. Those are interesting links, Tom, thank you for making them. I do note, however, that in the lawsuit, the windmills were built "along a major raptor migration corridor and in the heart of the highest concentration of golden eagles in North America. Wind turbines at Altamont Pass kill over a thousand birds each year..."
It seems possible that there are good steady wind areas that do not intrude on migration routes--on the extreme West Coast, for instance.
But to take another view, there's more than one way to kill a bird. Davis Bessy nuclear power plant nearly had a meltdown recently--it was found that there was severe corrosion in one of the containment vessels. Pretty scary. Would have been a good way to wipe out an awful lot of birds in Toledo, although I acknowledge that "what could have been" is not a very effective (if even valid) argument.* * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Arbor - 2005-01-04 10:53:21
Jeez! And here I was thinking specifically of the Altamont Pass wind farms...I stand corrected> I had no idea the bird mortality rates were so high. Of course, it has been a long time since I lived in California...
Laura--Do you have more details on the Bessy meltdown? That's just a bit too close for comfort... * * * * * * * * * * * *
Laura - 2005-01-04 10:56:53(reads article, gets testy at those picky rich folks) As far as the Nantucket article, it kind of gets my dander up. You know what? I wish I could put a wind turbine in my (microscopic) backyard. I wouldn't give a whiz about how it looks--it doesn't *matter* how it looks, that is not even an issue. I am impatient with the "summer people" who (poor dears) just can't bear the idea of their pricey playground having windmills--3 miles offshore. I doubt you'd even see something 3 miles offshore. Also, they'd blend into the sky-horizon.
At any rate, I'm surprised to see Robert Kennedy come out against this. He has--in the past--been strong on environmental issues. Till they affect his backyard, apparently.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 10:58:05
(oops, Dan beat me to the comments, sorry for any disconnectedness). Looking for the Bessy meltdown item...one second, please...* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 11:04:33
Here's a good 2002 page about the recent Davis-Besse (oops, mispelled it earlier) incident.
Pretty scary. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura, calmer - 2005-01-04 13:18:31
At any rate, it seems to me that the kite system would probably not have the same effect on birds that Tom was discussing.
Tom is right in that whether these issues are legitimate or not, they'll have to be dealt with, so, I wonder if they could construct the turbines from (just brainstorming) transparent materials instead of the white structures I've seen to date.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 13:26:36
I am not at all opposed to wind-generated power, but the wind farms must be sited carefully. The Altamont Pass wind farm demonstrates what happens to birds when they are sited poorly, and this project in Wales demonstrates what happens when they are sited without regard to other environmental concerns. The website I linked to is violently opposed to the project, but it does illustrate what can happen when these projects are badly located.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 13:42:55
That Welsh website is fascinating. I looked at all the pictures. Indeed, they seem to have done a rough, careless job of installing the turbines. But when done, the turbines seem to blend into the landscape more or less. I still think they're rather pretty. I also think it's a matter of people getting as used to them as, say, radio antennas or what have you.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 13:56:16
Well, one person's Vermeer is another's Heironymous Bosch (or something). I think the turbines look perfectly hideous strung out along the tops of the hillsides.
I agree that it's a matter of people getting used to them, but there are places where the aesthestic impact of turbines (or radio antennas or what have you) is too great. Cefn Croes is one of those places, as are similar places.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 14:02:07
Hm. We do seem to have different takes on this. I thought they looked rather pretty, in a Christo kind of way, strung along the Welsh hills. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 14:29:46
Two other impressions of windfarms, both from this page:
"I saw my first energy-generating wind farm on a stretch of highway between San Francisco and Sacramento; bare hills that were beautiful in a stark and sober way, not lyrical but still talking to the soul. The massed ranks of the towers with their blades, rotating in tandem, added to that strange beauty, I thought. Particularly as my friend doing the driving mentioned how much electricity was being generated..."
"The A13 is not a beautiful road (though there are some people trying to do something about that). Immortalised in poetry by Jah Wobble, it leaves London through the ugliest parts of its industrial landscape, running up to the M25 through Ford's massive Dagenham plant. Dock containers, gasometers, roadworks, revolting sixties concrete flyovers, industrial parks, giant inflatable McDonald's chips, 12-screen cinemas, you get the idea.
"And, just as you come over the crest of a particularly ugly flyover, three shiny new Norman Foster designed wind turbines. They provide enough clean electricity for 2000 homes, though in this case they'll be powering Ford's diesel assembly clean room.
"Wind turbines are controversial; people ask for planning permission to put large numbers of them on hills in areas of outstanding natural beauty. People rightly ask if it's worth blighting our countryside for the sake of clean power. But that's not a criticism of these wind turbines. They are quite the most beautiful thing on the A13; towering above the ravaged landscape, promising a cleaner, brighter future." * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 14:48:40
Oh, and I have to add this comment, from this page:
Neil MacLeod, Carnoustie, Scotland
A final thought - if politicians are so keen on wind power, why are there no so-called wind farms in the heart of London? Perhaps they should erect a couple of turbines in the Houses of Parliament, plenty of wind generated there! * * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 15:14:03
Interesting page. I have read (although I can't find the article right now) that part of the Welsh and Scottish resistence to wind farms is the feeling among them that England is dumping them into Wales and Scotland so as not to blight the English countryside. This feeling has as much to do with English/Welsh/Scottish history and the political dominance of England over Wales and Scottland as with reality, but the feelings are none the less intense.
For more anti-wind farm links, see here and here. * * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 15:17:45
I meant to say, "... part of the Welsh and Scottish resistence to wind farms is the feeling among them that England is dumping wind farms into Wales and Scotland so as not to blight the English countryside."* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 15:24:20
That's very interesting, to see how politics plays into it. I'm surprised that Wales and Scotland don't seem to have enough political autonomy to resist windfarm-dumping. I mean, they are under the British aegis, but they are still independent countries. Or so I thought.* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-04 15:37:00
Neither Scotland or Wales are independent countries. They were centuries ago, but are now part of the United Kingdom, which is comprised <:)> of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Scotland and Wales have national assemblies with limited automony, but all economic, defense, and foreign policies are formulated in London.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-04 15:42:00
It is always nice when people answer a rather ignorant question with a helpful and detailed answer.
I take it that London decides all energy policy, too, then. I wonder if in fact London *is* windfarm-dumping in those other countries.
I guess a rough U.S. equivalent would be the hideous mountaintop-removal mining going on in Appalachia, as far as exploiting a relatively poor and powerless area of the country.
Ignoring the "comprised of" for now. :)* * * * * * * * * * * * tom - 2005-01-05 13:12:26
Oddly enough, Yahoo just posted an article about the bird kills at Altamont Pass. It claims that over 4700 birds are killed each year. The article also list other projects under fire for environmental or aesthetic concerns.
It's hard to say if London is windfarm-dumping on Scotland and Wales. This article claims that 15 of the UK's 58 wind farms are in Wales, "but there are considerably greater numbers in the planning process." * * * * * * * * * * * * Bob - 2005-01-05 13:51:16
Regarding the safety of turbines: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-04-windmills-usat_x.htm* * * * * * * * * * * * Bob - 2005-01-05 13:52:08
oops, tom beat me to it.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2005-01-05 14:10:45
Very interesting articles; thank you--thanks, tom, for checking on windfarm-dumping.
I also liked the windmill picture on the yahoo article:
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tom - 2005-01-18 12:51:53You can now get a wind generator for your house. Seems to be offered only in the UK right now.* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: