Larry Kestenbaum - 2004-10-25 11:20:07
I'm definitely interested in cemetery tours.
If elected, I'm going to try to establish a county cemetery commission for the protection and preservation of the county's abandoned cemeteries.* * * * * * * * * * * *
I'd rather they were left alone, personally. We don't need a bunch of do-gooders swarming all over fragile sites that only a very few people know the locations of. I think that money could be better spent elsewhere. Leave the abandoneds to their fates. They're doing well enough on their own. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-25 11:31:14
Let's think this through before throwing money all over Creation. The only way--the only way to preserve these sites would be to remove the stones to a museum. Which would destroy the site, not to mention possibly stir up bad juju. A ballot initiative to build shelters over the abandoneds will never pass, would look tacky in some cases, and in some sites would be quite difficult--the oldest cemetery, up in Salem, is quite spread out, with one very ancient and one slightly newer section, impractical to roof. Let's face it. People don't care about these sites, except for a few people.* * * * * * * * * * * * Larry Kestenbaum - 2004-10-25 16:07:09
I'm all in favor of thinking things through, and I'm vehemently opposed to removing any artifacts from their existing sites. Building shelters over them would be silly.
But abandoned cemeteries, with no evidence that anyone cares about them, are magnets for vandalism. Even a little mowing and fence repair reduces the vandalism rate (the NY Landmarks Commission did a study of this). Obviously, visible-from-the-road cemeteries would be the ones in greatest need of this kind of protection from vandals.
Moreover, broken stones can often be repaired. In Texas and Indiana, they even have full-time county or state employees working on historic gravestone repair. I don't think we need to go to that much expense, but a little concerted effort would go a long way.
Maybe the word I should have used is "conservation" of old graveyards. They will not last long without a little help.
One abandoned graveyard I loved as a child, a few miles south of East Lansing, full of aromatic sassafras trees and many Gothic gravestones, is pretty much gone now -- vandals smashed or carted off the stones. The township which was theoretically responsible for the cemetery refused to do anything about it.
* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-25 16:28:31
Most of these abandoned cemeteries are in little danger from any more vandalism than they've already suffered, speaking as someone who's seen around half of them. Most of the sites are remote, some largely unknown. About a third are somewhat tricky to find, although doubtless known to locals.
I don't think stone repair is worth the trouble and expense, and I don't think a million people, even conservators, tramping over the site would do more good than ill.
Also, this is a personal interest of yours (e.g., the Political Graveyard) and not a move that will benefit many locals--a poor reason for you to suggest it. At any rate, before you start making recommendations, running a platform, spending other people's money, or disturbing people's graves, you should at the least go visit all of the sites, so that you know what you're talking about.
In my opinion.
* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-25 16:42:40
I mean, even I, who love these places enough to actually spend hours upon hours on multiple days visiting and photographing them instead of just talking without knowledge of them, would never dream, if I were a local official, of spending the people's money for a project that so very few of my constituents, realistically, care about.
Local genealogical and historical societies have done (and continue to do) graveyard readings to record local grave info, so the actual historical information has already likely been saved. I've saved some, myself.
But I would never waste the people's money on a personal, idiosyncratic interest of no benefit to my constituents. * * * * * * * * * * * * raymond - 2004-10-25 19:22:38
bury me not in the lone prarie* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-25 19:30:12
(gets off her latest soapbox-of-the-day, brushes hands briskly, scurries away).* * * * * * * * * * * * addiann - 2004-10-25 23:07:15
very nice da da bum, guys* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-25 23:39:41
To hastily change the topic after giving Larry such a probably undeserved hard time in my usual obnoxiously self-righteous fashion, I will add the riveting anecdote that Y. and her adventurous friend found an ancient trash dump in a woods opposite the Geddes site that we explored on a lark. It was way spooky. Lots of ancient leaf-covered rusty trash and a horribly mangled burned-out vintage truck in the middle of suddenly ominous woods. Well, we're always curious, so we tried to date the trashpile and with sticks fished out 1940s/50s-era coffee cans and, digging deeper, (perhaps we need more benign hobbies) beautiful antique bottles that are currently de-crusting in my kitchen sink.
I relate this gripping story at the risk of being hauled over the coals by certain asterisks deeply concerned with the preferably inviolate historical integrity of abandoned trash-piles, and the ethical horror of swiping three bottles and a cool mug.* * * * * * * * * * * * Larry Kestenbaum - 2004-10-26 10:25:07
Briefly in my own defense, though I have not been to as many Washtenaw County graveyards as Ypsi Dixit has, I have visited hundreds of them in various parts of the country. Back in the 80s, I systematically toured every known cemetery in Ingham County, just northwest of here.
Moreover, I created and still operate two of the longest-running historic cemetery web sites on the Internet, and I have belonged for years to several of the national email groups on cemeteries and historic preservation, and been through the periodic flame wars over cemeteries and genealogy.
On the national level, vandalism is a much more potent and immediate threat to the survival of historic cemeteries than mere weathering. This is not about the march of time, it's about deliberate, malicious destruction, and it is happening everywhere.
For example, Congressional Cemetery in Washington DC existed in good shape for nearly two centuries. Then somebody in Congress spitefully cut the maintenance budget. Weeds grew up, and within months, a lot of the stones and statuary were smashed. Among the items lost was the famous statue of the 10-year-old girl who had been Washington's first automobile accident fatality at the turn of the century. All that remains now are her dainty feet.
Old cemeteries are community resources, and it is up to the community to value them and care for them. In Michigan rural areas, that role normally falls to the township government. Some townships make this a priority; others don't.
I didn't think counties had much of a role in this. But a major local business leader, a man who has been concerned about old cemeteries in this area for decades, is very alarmed by the spike in vandalism, especially at some of the most vulnerable sites that are visible on high-traffic roads. He and I have been discussing this, and we're planning to work together after the election to promote some conservation of those places.
I'm not talking about drastic interventions. In most cases it means organizing people to pick up litter and garbage and maybe install or repair some fencing. It's not at all necessary that a cemetery fence exclude anyone: even a fence with a wide-open gate reduces vandalism tremendously by marking off a cemetery as a special and valued place.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-26 10:43:57
I don't see why, if preservation is such a burning concern to you, you haven't done anything on your own initiative, like going out with a trash bag to pick up trash (instead of "organizing [other] people" to do so).
Are these preservation issues the concern of a county clerk? My understanding was that the county clerk tends to county paperwork. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I haven't heard of or seen any spike in vandalism (which doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't been happening), and quoting an unnamed "major local business leader" (wow, should I be impressed?) is not convincing. His opinion on this issue is no more important than is mine or anyone else's--although it seems to be to you--a troubling attitude (I hesitate to say "elitist"), and not the kind of attitude I want *my* elected officials to have.* * * * * * * * * * * * Curious reader - 2004-10-26 11:00:44
Laura, you're uncharacteristically pricklish today. Ad hominen attacks, harsh pronouncements about things that may or may not be true, opposition to trash collection in graveyards? It's not that I disagree with you (although I do), it's just that your comments here seem uncharacteristic.
Is there something more to your opinions? Something that's making you so angry about this whole thing? Should we be concerned?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-26 11:06:33
"Curious reader," at this point in the discussion I'll respond to your comment if you go so far as to use your real name (my stats page gives me a pretty good hint, but I'll leave it up to you to out yourself).
Also, "you" don't equal a "we," so you should not speak as if you do.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-10-26 11:16:29
I'm happy to use my real name. I know you can see the stats, so that my name would be known to you was already known to me.
It's your blog and you're entitled to your opinions. But I noticed the attack on the Steve this morning. I noticed this disproportionately vicious (close to crazy) attack on Larry. If you'd like to add me to your hit list of the day that's fine with me. Your attacks today have made me uncomfortable, and are difficult to explain in light of what I usually think of as your rather tactful handling of people with whom you disagree. I'll just chalk it up to either a bad day, or a generally bad temperment. I prefer to think it's the former.
I'm also quite adept at not typing ypsidixit.diaryland.com, so if you'd like to turn your venom on me, I'll be happy to restrain my fingers.* * * * * * * * * * * * Rodney King - 2004-10-26 11:20:13
Can't we all just get along?* * * * * * * * * * * * Larry Kestenbaum - 2004-10-26 11:40:40
What I did on my own initiative, starting eight years ago, was to create the web sites. I perceived the neglect and destruction to be a national problem, and I decided that the best way I could contribute was to create a resource for people who valued the sites.
I'm a political candidate, and I am constrained in certain ways when I make public statements. The business leader who thinks the county ought to have a role in conserving cemeteries is officially neutral in my race, and it would be very bad manners for me to drop his name in this kind of posting. Probably I shouldn't have mentioned him at all, but I wanted to explain where the idea came from.
I take his views seriously, not just because he is a respected community leader, but because he has a distinguished academic background in history, and because he has been keeping a close eye on local cemeteries since long before I appeared on the scene.
But you should know by now that I do strive to listen carefully to everyone's point of view.* * * * * * * * * * * * yd - 2004-10-26 11:45:04
Has anyone seen warlocks grave on Huron River Drive before you get to Delhi Rd.?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-26 11:46:53
Well, Anna, I respect your opinion, and I agree that this discussion has kind of devolved to say the least. And I don't mind being called on it, and am in fact sorry that I let things accumulate to the point where someone whose opinion I value actually has to go so far to call me on it. Perhaps the most graceful thing to do at this point, in lieu of dragging things out, is for me to just shut up and consider this discussion over with, at least on my part. * * * * * * * * * * * * Patriot - 2004-10-26 11:49:28
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-10-26 13:25:05
:) Yes, well, Patriot, Anna has a valid point, if expressed a wee bit testily. I could have asked my question, which I do think is reasonable (in truth I don't see what the clerk position would have to do with a preservation issue), and raised my own points and disagreed in a slightly less bilious manner. At any rate. * * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2004-10-31 12:03:59
I would suppose you're referring to the waters road cemetery; it IS a different john geddes (see my comment ten thousand years ago on some thread elsewhere on your blog about the earhart road cemetery) (Yes, I just wanted an excuse to type the name 'Earhart').
Strangely, the "Geddesburg" john geddes makes no reference to them in his diary, so i think they were settlers who just happened to have the same name (or else weren't recognized by the rest of the family, which is obviously a more interesting theory).
as for the whole taxpayer money going to support historical preservation, I'd be much happier spending millions there than on building new crap that won't be built well enough to last a tenth as long as older structures; a cemetery parallel could be drawn between the rotting graveyards and wasted money going to improve parks and recreation facilities with no intrinsic value to most people in the community (I'm referring to athletic fields, golf courses, etc). * * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2004-10-31 12:55:49
geddes grave on waters road at night last winter:
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Brett - 2004-11-02 09:43:27Larry- I just got back from the polls, and wanted you to know i voted for you, largely because of your comments on this particular thread. Good Luck!* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-11-02 09:57:07
Wow--Brett, thank you so much for that very good Geddes info--I really appreciate it! My friend will be interested too.
And the graves you show look totally different from the ones I saw--so we were mistaken, it's a different JG.
I am quite sad to see the real geddes grave (I assume that is what your photo depicts) is so damaged.* * * * * * * * * * * *
brett - 2004-11-02 10:52:53no, this IS the geddes grave on waters road (about a mile west of AA/Saline road). The other (earhart rd) grave is in fine shape, actually. I would have posted it for comparison, but my photos are currently backed up in an awkwardly confused manner so that i can't access them very quickly.
If you didn't see an obelisk there, it's entirely possible it has been knocked down as i haven't been back since spring. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-11-02 10:55:42
Oh, were these outside the iron fence? Bit disoriented here, for a change.* * * * * * * * * * * * betting - 2005-10-08 09:55:40