leighton - 2004-05-25 13:05:18
This is of course much sweeter because of its sprawled location.
Another SUV tragedy:
http://www.freep.com/photos/2004/flood0524/05flood0524.jpg
* * * * * * * * * * * *
That second photo you linked to is a good photo-definition for the word "abashed" ("gee--I guess cars CAN'T drive underwater!")* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 13:46:52
What that article failed to mention is that he was attempting to pull a Prius out that was completely submerged.
I recognize that guy. He's part of our club.
http://thehummerclubinc.com/home/index.html* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 14:03:56
Speaking of pulling something out, the idea of a whole club full of swaggering, beer-gutted lemmings who can't drive somehow reminds me of that scene in Spinal Tap, where they stop the band at airport security and one of the guys sheepishly pulls a zucchini out of his pants.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 14:23:46
What's the deal with the sterotypes?
So much rage over inanimate object. Isn't indifference the opposite of love?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 14:28:28
Oh, I wouldn't say rage--more like amusement; if people make themselves look ridiculous you can't blame me for laughing.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 14:33:39
No rage? You just called me a fat alcoholic who is insecure about the size of my penis.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 14:38:06
Don't take it personally Eric. :)* * * * * * * * * * * * Lynne Fremont - 2004-05-25 15:19:46
That is the best photo I have seen all day. I have an irrational dislike for hummers and people who drive them. * * * * * * * * * * * * Leighton - 2004-05-25 15:53:10
The News article did say that the H2 started after drying out a while. This is of course a rarity with Hummers, as their initial quality is the worst in the world: http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004037c.gif Mewthinks the Prius mention was a fib?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 15:58:54
Yes (fib). Thanks for the link Leighton! Glad you liked the photo Lynne.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 16:48:39
The only reason the JD Powers numbers are so bad is that Hummer owners are discerning customers. Also, do you really think Honda Insight owners complain if their front winch doesn't work as they hoped?* * * * * * * * * * * * Leighton - 2004-05-25 18:42:22
Discerning and "stupid"? Did the "discerning" H2 buyers not notice the bad plastics, odd ride, and nobby tires droning on the test drive? Or were they blinded by the H2ype? Most have noticed their neighbors' woes and avoided the H2 this year. Dealers are worried. * * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 19:04:46
You'd be surprised what people make themselves believe. My neighbor can't stop talking about how great his VW Golf is, but JD Powers says it's barely better than my ride. Go figure.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 19:54:13
What ride is that, Eric? Seriously, if you're a Hummer leaser, lay out for us why it's so great (just an aside--both my car & Ford F-150 are paid in full).* * * * * * * * * * * * Steven Cherry - 2004-05-25 20:43:08
Well his H2 looks like a Hummer but doesn't exactly work like one. Funny how it works sorta like a Chevy Suburban.
Of course real Hummers cost $100,000.* * * * * * * * * * * *
Laura - 2004-05-25 21:16:24Hmm. Not to disagree, but I thought they were built on a Tahoe plan. I've read articles that point to both the H1 and H2's mushy freeway handling, relatively low ground clearance, and relatively crowded interior space.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 21:17:10
nice picture btw...thanks Steven.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-25 22:07:36
No matter what I told you, or how many reviews I found that said it was a great ride, you'll never agree with me.
I was drawn to it because of the styling, but also because it's so polarizing. Someone has to stick up for the underdog.
For what it's worth, the H2 is built off of the GMT820 platform which is the Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon, and GMs other full-size trucks.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 23:08:27
Eric, you have no idea what I'd agree with or not agree with. I off and on try to seek out people/opinions/publications that I don't agree with in order to 1. see if my viewpoint is too limited or 2. see if I'm missing something. That's why I asked. Am I missing something? You talk about the styling and I have to agree it's very distinctive and a head-turner, for a variety of reasons. You also say it's a great ride, although I'm not sure what that means. It seems to me that "great ride" is a sum of various factors, including handling, style, and just overall drive-feel. I'd say my Pontiac Sunfire is a good, not great, ride, based on its sportiness and general cuteness (points subtracted for unpowerful engine), and I'd say my Ford truck is an OK ride based on its sluggish maneuverability and low MPG. But as to the Hummer, what else? I'm curious, having never driven one. Like I said, I may be missing something that's eclipsed by my knee-jerk prejudices. Also, it's odd but true that the Prius contingent is probably also motivated by the "stick up for the underdog" thing. (How can a tanklike vehicle be an "underdog"?)* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 23:13:19
At the end of the day, as they say, though, it's still the Hummer's emissions/abysmal MPG problem that concerns me.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-25 23:17:01
and incidentally, points are added to my ancient Ford due to its having a straight six and an unapologetically airbag-free Model T-simple crap-free interior.* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2004-05-26 00:10:27
if you look at the photo of a "real" hummer in steven cherry's comment, you'll notice the pipe sticking out of the left side of the hood by the windshield...this is the exhaust.
that's why a military-grade model could have plowed through the water without flooding the engine, I think.
anyway, I agree with most of the comments and think that SUV's in general are, above all else, very selfish vehicles inconsiderate of the safety of others. They're not rated very well for the safety of occupants, either.
Of course, I personally drive a 14 year old honda civic, and wish it were smaller and less flashy.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 00:43:48
Thanks for the exhaust-pipe info Brett--I see it, there. I agree with your ratings notes...as for me, I drive a 1995 Pontiac Sunfire in the winter and the Ford truck in the summer (hauling mulch, etc.). State Farm lets me insure both vehicles under one "trade-off" policy, with the truck insured for summer & the Sunfire for winter. Pretty innovative on their part, I'd say.* * * * * * * * * * * * Hillary - 2004-05-26 08:45:46
I love State Farm.
I have only driven this hummer:
http://www.redhummer.com/firetrucks/Fa12.jpg http://www.redhummer.com/firetrucks/Fa13.jpg
It's a dog on the highway and too loud in the cab to have a conversation. It has to be taken to the dealership for repairs every 2 weeks it's used. We knocked a mirror off it once and the repair price was astounding.
We drive a salvaged 94 VW Golf with SUV door dings all over the fenders and doors.* * * * * * * * * * * * Hillary - 2004-05-26 08:47:51
There are two URLs there :)* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-05-26 09:10:22
Eric -- for someone who bought a vehicle because it's polarizing, you sure don't seem to like the resulting conflict. I wouldn't say that hummers enrage me, but I have to admit to not liking them or the people irresponsible enough to buy them without a very good reason. It's a vanity vehicle. It's irresponsible. It's dangerous to others on the road because it's so huge and it's bad for the environment. Isn't that reason enough for contempt, if not rage?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 09:33:39
That's interesting Hillary--I've never seen a Hummer converted into a mini fire truck. My truckophile nephew would go nuts if he saw that. * * * * * * * * * * * * Leighton Mann - 2004-05-26 10:38:48
Seems like people who bought Hummers were easily swayed by Hype and irregular self-image. I say "bought" because sales are tanking (Prius sales are through the roof BTW). Maybe people are wising up to the fact: even off road an H2 ain't worth 3 Wranglers (which may actually have worse reliability - if that's possible). A friend of mine drove an H1 for years and screamed in disbelief at the former H2 craze. I drove Tahoes / Burbans for years in Texas for work. Why not just get a sweet Tahoe? Or is that too close to an Escallade for Suburbanites afraid to be mistaken for black? * * * * * * * * * * * * Leighton Mann - 2004-05-26 10:38:58
Seems like people who bought Hummers were easily swayed by Hype and irregular self-image. I say "bought" because sales are tanking (Prius sales are through the roof BTW). Maybe people are wising up to the fact: even off road an H2 ain't worth 3 Wranglers (which may actually have worse reliability - if that's possible). A friend of mine drove an H1 for years and screamed in disbelief at the former H2 craze. I drove Tahoes / Burbans for years in Texas for work. Why not just get a sweet Tahoe? Or is that too close to an Escallade for Suburbanites afraid to be mistaken for black? * * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-26 14:43:01
I see that my failing is that I don't behave as prescribed by others. I bow to your imperialism. I do like the idea of trading in and getting a loaded Tahoe, but I'd bet that's still too oppulent for some. I just can't win.* * * * * * * * * * * * Hillary - 2004-05-26 16:07:23
I'm all for swinging your arms as you please, but it is selfish and irresponsible to pop another person in the nose while you flail. I have asthma and enough problems with ground level ozone. I do not appreciate the added air pollution or the higher potential for injury in an auto accident that your behavior creates. You damage the health of all of us.* * * * * * * * * * * * leighton - 2004-05-26 16:33:37
The average Hummer buyer behaves exactly as prescribed by corporate America (sometimes owned by Saudi Arabia). * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 16:39:55
Dumb question: are there any hybrid trucks?* * * * * * * * * * * * leighton - 2004-05-26 18:04:04
I think they are woking on a hybrid full-sized Silverado for fleets at GM for this year. * * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-26 18:25:47
I'm willing to bet the emissions on my 2002 H2 are better than those on your 1994 VW. Although I will have to concede on the C02 output. If you want to wage a battle on behalf of your asthma, start a FU-two-stroke-lawnmower.com website. They choke out far more pollutants than my vehicle ever could. For the record, I use a reel lawnmower to cut my grass. See? I can feign moral superiority too.
And are there really those who think the Prius isn't a vanity vehicle too? Considering one costs $6K more than a Toyota Corolla, I'd have to say they are.
Finally, Ford will introduce the hybrid Escape this summer, and the Lexus RX330h is due out shortly.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 21:20:44
Lawnmowers are indeed horribly pollutive machines (I have and use one, unfortunately), and the whole lawn-worship thing is ridiculous in my opinion, but anyways. It should be noted that my truck has poor emissions and MPG. But it should also be noted that I never use it to go to work during the week, when I bike-bus, but only when I need to haul something on the weekend, like the ever-needed mulch. I don't think the Prius is a vanity vehicle for most buyers. Just because it costs more doesn't make it a vanity vehicle. Something gaudy (different from "opulent", btw) and completely unnecessary (many other vehicles have greater cargo space, &c.) is a vanity vehicle, like a midlife crisis Camaro for example. The Prius isn't gaudy--it's plain-looking--and far from being unnecessary it's one of the few options we have at present of weaning ourselves from foreign oil and being better stewards of the earth in general. There are probably some people who make a big deal out of buying one, but I think the average buyer is just someone who is making some effort to be more responsible about earthly resources.
What this ongoing discussion is showing me is that the whole ecological question is a bit more complicated than just dissing Hummers, which is not to excuse them.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-05-26 22:45:31
I don't know if there is any truth to your claim that a hummer meets higher emissions standards than a '94 golf, but I would be willing to bet that a) they are still more hazardous to the people in the other car in accidents and that b) they get poorer gas milage than a Golf. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 23:13:45
I agree with Anna--it's just a Golf, for Heaven's sake (they get far better MPG).* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-26 23:26:59
More stringent emissions regulations went into effect in 1996. Those regulations have only gotten more strict in the passing eight years. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean I have to make up stuff.
Prius sales are up 78.1% over last year. However, there have been less than 14K of them sold so far this year (with only 40K destined for the US in 2004). To me, the "average" buyer doesn't own something as rare or unique as that. Owners are obviously trying to make a statement by owning one. Maybe it's not the same statement that my wife is trying to make with her Mini Cooper, but it's still a statement some might consider vain.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-26 23:36:33
I don't get how a responsible car purchase makes one vain, as opposed to buying an egregiously unnecessary Hummer. * * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-26 23:52:36
Given the choice between a Ford Focus and a Toyota Prius, which would you buy? Both are PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicles). The Focus will set you back $14K. The Prius will set you back $20K. Per the Detroit News, the Focus gets 35 MPG and the Prius got 44.1 MPG. Over the life of ownership, you won't save enough in gasoline to come close in making up the $6K price differential.
If a person said they'd buy the Prius based on his/her environment commitment, I'd say that person isn't very good with math.
It's rather silly of you, an admitted Hummer leaser, to give the rest of us advice on how to be environmentally responsible. Gimme a break.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-05-27 07:28:27
Eric -- You're getting economic motives ("you'd never make up the $6K difference") all confused with environmental ones (9 mpg adds up over the lifetime of a car. Recall that fossil fuel is a nonrenewable resource). I do admire your attempts to justify your vehicle. I'm going to use you as an example of cognitive dissonance next time I have to teach the concept. Thanks.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-27 08:39:22
Come on now Laura, if you really weren't a phony and cared about the environment as you claim, you'd go to Sears and buy a reel lawnmower today. Your lawnmower pollutes more than my car and you claim to be the responsible one? It is I who needs the break.
And for the record, my car pollutes less than your Sunfire or your F150. Where is your moral high ground now?* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-27 08:50:28
Hm. Well, I take my bike on the bus during the week. Does that pollute more than your car? And I used to have one of those push mowers, in fact, but it didn't cut my lawn--a lawn I'm steadily eliminating with ever-expanding flowerbeds since I think lawns are wasteful and stupid. At any rate, you're making yourself look ridiculous by arguing how a Hummer owner is on the environmental high ground. I mean, what else? Do you make your own house cleaners instead of buying harmful chemicals? Maybe you donate to the Sierra Club. Let's not get ridiculous--the core fact of the matter is that the purchase of a silly Hummer is indefensible. Period. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-27 08:59:37
One other thing. You don't know me, so kindly do not call me a "phony." You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about, and ad hominem attacks weaken your own position, by showing you have no other means of defense (such as facts or logic).* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-27 09:15:07
Whatever facts I use, you simply ignore. You are trying to label me a environmental assassin, but my car is cleaner than yours and so is my lawnmower. Those are facts.
Admittedly I played foul by calling you a phony, but you obviously understand my frustration when someone claims to know me because of the car I drive. Those people haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about and their attacks only weaken their position.* * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-05-27 12:35:37
Eric,
Whether or not Laura uses a higher-emissions lawn mower has nothing to do with this debate unless you can produce the data that the average lawn mower used during the average period of time it is used in Michigan (three months a year, once a week if that -- that is, 12 times a year) on the average sized lawn (I would guess 1/2 acre or smaller in Ypsi) emits more in a year than the average driver driving the average number of miles at the average speed (not necessarily the speed limit) in a Hummer. Show us the data. Is there a link? This sounds suspiciously like Hummer manufacturer propaganda.
The fact is that regardless of emissions (I'd actually like to see the data that says that a Hummer emits less per mile than a Sunfire or a golf, BTW, do you have a link?), your car is still a gas guzzler and a danger to others on the road. * * * * * * * * * * * *
freeman white - 2004-05-27 13:02:30Eric, According to the figures you listed above for the Focus and the Prius, and adding the figures I found for the H2 (list 51K, 13 MPG), the cost you'd save curbing your own vanity by stepping down from the H2 to the Prius (if we are to agree that both are vain purchases due the figures associated with the Focus -- which is how you defined the Prius as being a vanity purchase above) would be a grand total of 41K over the course of 100K miles (using $2.15/gallon as the price of gas). On top of this, you'd use 4,835 less gallons of gas. For 41K (the money you'd save owning a Prius) you could buy both a Focus and another Prius and still have enough money left over to purchase 2,325 gallons of gas. That's 775 gallons of gas per car (now that you own two Priuses and a Focus), enough to fuel each Prius for 31,852 miles apiece and the Focus for 27,125 miles. Now the figures for the emissions on your H2 may be lower than any of these cars, I don�t know, but what I do know is that the figures are based on a how many parts per million each hazardous compound makes up in a determined amount of gasoline consumed � in other words, by volume of gasoline. Considering your Hummer will use 37% more gasoline over 100,000 miles than the Prius, I�d say your car isn�t as environmentally friendly as you think. To quote you: �If a person said they'd buy the Prius based on his/her environment commitment, I'd say that person isn't very good with math.� Perhaps you should rethink/rephrase your argument and be willing to compare your own vehicle instead of leading the conversation away from it to make your point. * * * * * * * * * * * * Hillary - 2004-05-27 13:19:40
Every bit counts. Conservatively, I'm living at 1/3rd of the environmental footprint of the average American. How are you doing, Eric? http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp#* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-27 13:36:07
Hillary: Every bit counts, absolutely. Anna: yes, I use mower every other week in summer and have .23 acre, about 70% of which is covered in 1. buildings 2. plantings 3. pond. If you "unrolled" the actual distance I cover in the 15 mins it takes to mow, it would be about to the end of my street, an eighth of a mile. Eric: I have asked you before to please not put words in my mouth. I did not in fact ever call you an "environmental assassin," and far from judging you by your car, I've given you ample opportunity in this post to list the reasons why you yourself like the car--what the positive aspects are. Questions I asked, way up there, about what is good about "the ride" (responding to a comment you made) were not answered by you. And I don't claim to know you. Never did; this was about the car, not you. At any rate, I'm still curious as to why it's a great ride, never having ridden in one.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-27 13:54:43
Here's a study done by a Swedish-based scientist. If I had a better mastery of Google, I'd find more.
http://www.mindfully.org/Air/Lawnmower-Exhaust.htm
It says that 1 hr of lawnmower use equals 150km of auto exaust.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-27 14:22:27
If you insist on the lawnmower, then we have to consider my whole picture. Like Hillary, I also try to leave a light footstep. I have no TV or microwave or other big appliances aside from (energy-efficient model) fridge, computer, washer (no dryer--hang it outside in summer & have a rack for winter) & radio. I grow a good deal of my own food in summer, have 10 fruit trees I planted, and freeze some of it. Keep the thermostat in mid-60s. Insulated the attic 2 years ago & the house itself is only 790 sq. ft.--not a lot of heat needed. And I bus-bike during the week. Drive an average of 10 mi. during the weekend shopping. There is always more one could do, of course.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-27 14:51:07
I'm glad there are people like you around. I figure you cancel out my excesses.* * * * * * * * * * * * leighton - 2004-05-27 15:18:29
"I'm glad there are people like you around. I figure you cancel out my excesses." In jest or not, this is a common attitude. Average MPG for each automaker is calculated over all models. People are counting on the good and ugly buyers to smooth out CAFE standards. Of course we can than the H2 designers for its horrendous child-carting qualities (interior space / accessibility). The worst possible type of consuption is achieved by over breeding.* * * * * * * * * * * * Eric - 2004-05-27 15:27:20
Back in 1975 the U.S. Congress gave automakers 10 years to double the corporate average fuel economy of their passenger car fleets to 27.5 mpg from what was then about 13 mpg. They did it. But in the meantime we've seen the nation's appetite for gasoline for passenger cars increase by 10 billion gallons. * * * * * * * * * * * * Anna - 2004-05-27 15:27:55
So for someone with a lawn that is a third of an acre (like mine), including a house, gardens, and driveways: I would estimate that generously speaking it takes 20 minutes to mow it at a pop (less for me). Say that gets done 10 times a year (probably more like 8 if for many people, like me). That means that at the most someone in that situation spends is 200 minutes a year, or 3 hours, 20 minutes mowing. That means that the amount emitted by using a lawnmower is worth 500 KM or 300 miles a year worth of auto exhaust. Given that I would guess the average number of miles people drive 10-15,000 a year, someone who takes public transportation to work and mows with a gas mower is still an order of magnitude behind on emissions compared with someone who drives a large vehicle but who trims the lawn via grazing goats. * * * * * * * * * * * * leighton - 2004-05-27 16:12:12
I have mixed feelings about govt. forcing automakers to raise avg. MPG. But the "Hummer loophole" that allowed you to write off H2 (and heavier vehicles which somehow exist) as business expenses was a complete joke. Our accountant offered that as an option to get a tax-break mobile. We weren't even tempted.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-27 21:27:45
phew, thanks Anna. And Leighton; you're right, that write-off loophole is puzzling...but I was perhaps mistakenly under the impression that you could similarly write off any vehicle if it's used for your business (although why you'd need a Hummer for business seems dubious).* * * * * * * * * * * * brett - 2004-05-28 01:03:43
this conversation is absurd. in two posts, someone will bring up cows flatulating.
idea#1: walk instead of drive.
idea#2: if you must, drive a little car so that when you bump into someone you won't kill them.
idea#3: arnold schwarzennegger was one of the first people in this country to buy a hummer for personal (non-military) use.
discuss. * * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-28 08:21:11
Yes; speaking of absurd conversations, he gave a speech yesterday about how we should all conserve gas, which I thought was silly, given his vehicle.
Note: I don't own a cow...but my sweet old dog is at times a wee bit gassy. * * * * * * * * * * * * Hillary - 2004-05-28 12:09:11
You could buy a goat and sell your lawnmower.* * * * * * * * * * * * Laura - 2004-05-28 12:15:00
we're veering perilously close to brett's prediction... :) actually, I like goats quite a bit. They're said to be quite smart (by biased owners, that is). * * * * * * * * * * * * Mery - 2005-08-18 09:35:31
Your site is realy very interesting.* * * * * * * * * * * * add your comment: